I don’t see that secession would make California any more functional unless there really was a complete overhaul in the way laws are made, a repeal of the absurd term limits now in place, and unless the will of the people expressed in Prop 187 is fulfilled.  The reason I and millions of other people have left California is because the huge numbers of alien and native-born parasites have overwhelmed the state’s infrastructure and the government’s ability to provide adequate services to the people of the state.  California is about to become America’s first failed state and may require federal occupation sometime in the near future.

phreddy wrote:

I agree that the initiative process is abused and even perverted in California.  However, keeping in mind that the citizens vote on each one of them, it is obvious they are the will of the people.  If legislators spent more time doing the will of those who elected them, and less time entrenching themselves and following the instructions of their political leaders, there would be little need for initiatives.  Add to this the fact that the courts overturn many initiatives as being unconstitutional.  I have a little trouble understanding how an initiative, which is an amendment to the state constitution, can be ruled in violation of the constitution it amends.

Initiatives are frequently poorly designed and very one-sided. The fact the courts have to spend so much time studying them points to the inefficiency of the system. And, no, initiatives are not the will of the people. Particularly in California, they're the will of special interests who are the most successful in buying air time and shaping the course of dialogue surrounding initiatives. It's a stupid system that has paralyzed California and our legislature.

And, no, not all initiatives are amendments to the constitution and the constitution is not a laundry lists of easily erased points. The spirit of the entire document, through precedent, history, and interpretation, has to be taken into account.

I vote for political reps who most closely represent my own interests and beliefs, but I vote for them because I want them to make important decisions on my behalf, not to parrot whatever "the people" want. The people frequently are not well informed about issues, and often vote against their best interests. Like most people, I can 't keep up with all the issues, bonds, and everything else that are a part of the daily function of government. That's why we choose people to make those decisions for us.

fnord wrote:

I don’t see that secession would make California any more functional unless there really was a complete overhaul in the way laws are made, a repeal of the absurd term limits now in place, and unless the will of the people expressed in Prop 187 is fulfilled.  The reason I and millions of other people have left California is because the huge numbers of alien and native-born parasites have overwhelmed the state’s infrastructure and the government’s ability to provide adequate services to the people of the state.  California is about to become America’s first failed state and may require federal occupation sometime in the near future.

That would be the point behind secession: to give California the opportunity to completely overhaul itself and fashion a government that can more efficiently run what amounts to a mid-sized nation. Admittedly, there are pitfalls and flaws galore in such an approach, but I don't know that they're necessarily any worse than what we're facing now.

I have a love/hate relationship with California. Even growing up here for about 11 years (before we moved back to Arkansas), I've never felt at home here. I love San Francisco and am quite content to remain here as long as I live in California, but those feelings don't transfer to the state itself. I get ribbed by friends because I often refer to crossing the Golden Gate or Bay bridges as "going to California" but I have a very difficult time relating to the place. Despite the stereotypes of the place, it's incredibly complex and too difficult to describe with a few sweeping adjectives. I've been here eight years now; I don't know that I'll ever feel like California is home.

I lived in California for 27 years.

I miss it sometimes. Mostly the ocean. I've been back 4 times in 7 years.

I get to go back in November for a wedding on the Queen Mary. Long Beach sucks.

You know what's even more depressing than long beach? Lomita! WTF! All the homeless people you see there are white magnum PI rejects,  toothless, pushing shopping carts in and out of the bamboo groves and wearing dirty Hawaiian shirts. 

And I like the mexi vibe, it's way better than say, if Swedish Lutherans had taken over. The state would shut down without their contributions, not to mention the killer taco trucks. Who would you rather have? White folks in large numbers tend to lame-ify a place pretty quick with middle class tract housing and Hooters.   

I get lost every time I drive Pine Ave,  but it is very cool.

Last edited by icangetyouatoe (2009-10-13 03:27:49)

Emmeran wrote:

sofaking wrote:

I lived in California for 27 years.

I miss it sometimes. Mostly the ocean. I've been back 4 times in 7 years.

I get to go back in November for a wedding on the Queen Mary. Long Beach sucks.

Hey!!

Long Beach rocks while it sucks; Pine Ave is the only party street for 200 miles in any direction.

When we lived in Long Beach (Bixby Knolls off Olive Street), we were partying in L.A.

I have only partied off Pine Street a few times. It was fun, but not as much fun as South Street in Philly (another place too gross to live in).

Taint wrote:

I have a love/hate relationship with California. Even growing up here for about 11 years (before we moved back to Arkansas), I've never felt at home here. I love San Francisco and am quite content to remain here as long as I live in California, but those feelings don't transfer to the state itself. I get ribbed by friends because I often refer to crossing the Golden Gate or Bay bridges as "going to California" but I have a very difficult time relating to the place. Despite the stereotypes of the place, it's incredibly complex and too difficult to describe with a few sweeping adjectives. I've been here eight years now; I don't know that I'll ever feel like California is home.

I visited your fair city last Friday when I attended the President's Cup golf tournament.  They actually wanded all 40,000 attendees with metal detectors.  I've been to dozens of professional sporting events, even Oakland Raider games, and have never been run through a metal detector before.  My buddy commented loudly, "what the hell, this isn't a rap concert for christ's sake."

fnord wrote:

I would humbly suggest that living in a Mexican barrio or Black ghetto for a while would make you appreciate being surrounded by large numbers of White people.

Based on My personal experience here in south Atlanta, you would humbly be wrong.

sofaking wrote:

Move to Nevada.

The ad compares California's legislators to monkeys, and the state budget to flying pigs.

I lived in California for 31 years.  When I moved there it was an awesome paradise, though I noticed even then the edges were beginning to fray.  It didn’t affect me at the time because the rot seemed to be confined to a few bad areas.  Then it got to the point that the decay became more widespread but could still be avoided.  By the time I left, the rot was unavoidable; the effects of years of bad public policy, overburdened infrastructure and unchecked illegal immigration stared you in the face no matter where you went.  Everybody has a different bullshit tolerance level, some Californians found it necessary to escape as early as the 1970s.  My tolerance level was reached at some point after the turn of the century and I found it necessary to leave.

Taint wrote:

I have a love/hate relationship with California. Even growing up here for about 11 years (before we moved back to Arkansas), I've never felt at home here. I love San Francisco and am quite content to remain here as long as I live in California, but those feelings don't transfer to the state itself. I get ribbed by friends because I often refer to crossing the Golden Gate or Bay bridges as "going to California" but I have a very difficult time relating to the place. Despite the stereotypes of the place, it's incredibly complex and too difficult to describe with a few sweeping adjectives. I've been here eight years now; I don't know that I'll ever feel like California is home.

I love living in the South Bay.  Traffic, crime, etc. are all at reasonable levels, the weather is great, I can head in to San Francisco whenever I want, and I run into every kind of person you can possibly imagine.  I never even go to the ocean, so I don't care, but if I moved away, what I would miss are the hills.

That said, there are parts of California that I can't stand.  California is huge, and any attempt to say "California is..." is usually only true if you limit it to the area they live in or lived in.  San Diego, San Jose, Los Angeles, Santa Cruz, San Francisco, Sacramento...  All of these places and their surrounding areas are very different, even though there is a common California culture to some extent.

kim wrote:

fnord wrote:

sofaking wrote:

Move to Nevada.

The ad compares California's legislators to monkeys, and the state budget to flying pigs.

I lived in California for 31 years.  When I moved there it was an awesome paradise, though I noticed even then the edges were beginning to fray.  It didn’t affect me at the time because the rot seemed to be confined to a few bad areas.  Then it got to the point that the decay became more widespread but could still be avoided.  By the time I left, the rot was unavoidable; the effects of years of bad public policy, overburdened infrastructure and unchecked illegal immigration stared you in the face no matter where you went.  Everybody has a different bullshit tolerance level, some Californians found it necessary to escape as early as the 1970s.  My tolerance level was reached at some point after the turn of the century and I found it necessary to leave.

Where are you now?

Bottom line: California could be an amazing place, but no matter what you are doing or where you are there is always some asshole fucking it up in one or another.

I’m in an unspoiled undisclosed location in The West that I wish to keep secret.  It’s a beautiful majority White area with stunning scenery, cultural amenities, very few Mormons, Fundamentalists or other rightwing religious crackpots, and a laid back atmosphere.  It has many of the qualities of the lost California I fell in love with many years ago, and like California it could be ruined by developers, illegals, assholes, and crowds.

It’s hard to describe what a magical place California was a few decades ago.  Incredible natural areas and beaches that weren’t crowded, a great educational system, socially progressive people, a feeling of safety just about anywhere you went, and far fewer cars on the freeways.  There are a few places in Northern California that still have some of that magical quality that once defined California, but most areas of the state are devolving into some variation of East LA or Bakersfield.

fnord wrote:

There are a few places in Northern California that still have some of that magical quality that once defined California, but most areas of the state are devolving into some variation of East LA or Bakersfield.

I'm guessing you live in Alpine County.  As I recall there was a movement back in the seventies for gays to move there and take over the whole county because the population was so small.  It really is a beautiful area. 

On another note, if you draw a line between Lake Tahoe out to the ocean NW of Santa Rosa, you have 20 northern counties the size of the state of Ohio with only 2 million population.  I live in the middle of that area.  It is beautiful up here and the scum from the south has not yet invaded in big numbers.  However, I feel it coming and fear that I may need to move farther out when I retire.  I grew up in California and I lament the state that we have lost.

phreddy wrote:

fnord wrote:

There are a few places in Northern California that still have some of that magical quality that once defined California, but most areas of the state are devolving into some variation of East LA or Bakersfield.

I'm guessing you live in Alpine County.  As I recall there was a movement back in the seventies for gays to move there and take over the whole county because the population was so small.  It really is a beautiful area. 

On another note, if you draw a line between Lake Tahoe out to the ocean NW of Santa Rosa, you have 20 northern counties the size of the state of Ohio with only 2 million population.  I live in the middle of that area.  It is beautiful up here and the scum from the south has not yet invaded in big numbers.  However, I feel it coming and fear that I may need to move farther out when I retire.  I grew up in California and I lament the state that we have lost.

I no longer live in California.  I didn't move to the area you mentioned because as you stated, it will soon be ruined.

Heh, I haven't triggered an avalanche like this since the fire drill at work.