#2 2012-01-02 17:32:56
Hmmmmm wonder where you got this from?
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#3 2012-01-02 17:53:01
Wow. Soon they'll be learning to get food stamps, eh Fnord?
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#4 2012-01-02 17:58:08
Dmtdust wrote:
Hmmmmm wonder where you got this from?
Is this a hat?
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#5 2012-01-02 18:19:32
Taint wrote:
But he's not that bright. He's using a metal spatula in a Teflon pan
He's also one sneeze away from having his nuts in the fire.
Dmtdust wrote:
Hmmmmm wonder where you got this from?
Applebee's?
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#6 2012-01-02 19:55:15
Taint wrote:
Dmtdust wrote:
Hmmmmm wonder where you got this from?
Is this a hat?
As far as I am concerned. Heh.
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#7 2012-01-02 20:14:59
Taint wrote:
But he's not that bright. He's using a metal spatula in a Teflon pan.
Thought One: Do you wanna be the one to tell him he's an incompetent cook?
Thought Two: Holy shit is that creepy.
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#8 2012-01-02 20:38:21
whosasailorthen wrote:
Wow. Soon they'll be learning to get food stamps, eh Fnord?
Food Stamps, Section 8, WIC, and Aid to Families with Dependent Children!
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#9 2012-01-02 21:53:58
fnord wrote:
whosasailorthen wrote:
Wow. Soon they'll be learning to get food stamps, eh Fnord?
Food Stamps, Section 8, WIC, and Aid to Families with Dependent Children!
Works every time. God love ya, Fnord.
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#10 2012-01-03 03:11:29
This is merely button pushing.
Lighting a match or lighter... big deal. Those are 1500 year old technologies. They have nothing to do with millions of year old development. Can this ape find natural fire from a lightening strike or bush fire and preserve the embers until they are needed? Can he create fire from fiction or rapid air compression as humans have done for tens or hundreds of thousands or millions of years?
All he is doing is applying heat to make his food taste better (pushing a button), and he is cooking worse than a 4 year old child can. He's 31? He's 75% through the captive lifespan, if it's anything like most other animals, he's already exceeded his wild lifespan.
"He was never told to make a fire." He's not making a fire!!!! He's pressing a fucking button. He has no concept of what he is doing other that pushing a button and getting a result. "It took a long time to hold a lighter properly." Sounds like a genius. Praise and correction is demonstrated in the video. He was trained like a dog whether she was aware of it or not.
He's not even stoking his own fire, he's handing the sticks off to the bitch who is capitalizing on this bullshit.
This is complete and utter bullshit and I commend (condemn) Dr Savage-Rumbaugh for profiting from it.
This is very much like the autistic kid deal where the "assistant" would "guide" the spastic hand to spell out poetry and prose.
"For Kanzi’s own safety, he is only allowed to make fires under close supervision." BECAUSE HE'S A STUPID FUCKING ANIMAL WHO HAS NO IDEA WHAT THE FUCK HE IS DOING!!!!!
I cannot even begin to express how angry I am about this without risking extraordinary extradition.
I hate this woman so much... disgusting to pretend this is science or legitimate.
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#12 2012-01-03 05:58:26
DupeOrNot wrote:
This is merely button pushing.
Lighting a match or lighter... big deal. Those are 1500 year old technologies. They have nothing to do with millions of year old development. Can this ape find natural fire from a lightening strike or bush fire and preserve the embers until they are needed? Can he create fire from fiction or rapid air compression as humans have done for tens or hundreds of thousands or millions of years?
All he is doing is applying heat to make his food taste better (pushing a button), and he is cooking worse than a 4 year old child can. He's 31? He's 75% through the captive lifespan, if it's anything like most other animals, he's already exceeded his wild lifespan.
"He was never told to make a fire." He's not making a fire!!!! He's pressing a fucking button. He has no concept of what he is doing other that pushing a button and getting a result. "It took a long time to hold a lighter properly." Sounds like a genius. Praise and correction is demonstrated in the video. He was trained like a dog whether she was aware of it or not.
He's not even stoking his own fire, he's handing the sticks off to the bitch who is capitalizing on this bullshit.
This is complete and utter bullshit and I commend (condemn) Dr Savage-Rumbaugh for profiting from it.
This is very much like the autistic kid deal where the "assistant" would "guide" the spastic hand to spell out poetry and prose.
"For Kanzi’s own safety, he is only allowed to make fires under close supervision." BECAUSE HE'S A STUPID FUCKING ANIMAL WHO HAS NO IDEA WHAT THE FUCK HE IS DOING!!!!!
I cannot even begin to express how angry I am about this without risking extraordinary extradition.
I hate this woman so much... disgusting to pretend this is science or legitimate.
That's all irrelevant. A more interesting question would be can he be taught to find natural fire from a lightening strike or bush fire and preserve the embers until they are needed? And could then be able to teach that behavior to other chimps. If the answers are yes and yes, then what's he got that your great GREAT grandmother doesn't?
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#13 2012-01-04 19:29:08
Tall Paul wrote:
That's all irrelevant. A more interesting question would be can he be taught to find natural fire from a lightening strike or bush fire and preserve the embers until they are needed? And could then be able to teach that behavior to other chimps. If the answers are yes and yes, then what's he got that your great GREAT grandmother doesn't?
I would say no, the bonobo cannot be taught. They could certainly be taught to find the wildfire and put an ember in a container-- I think you could teach a bird, dog or pig that too. But I seriously doubt that they could be taught to maintain that ember until it is needed for cooking or warmth. I doubt they could be taught to build a fire that is safe to be around. I doubt they would discover on their own, which dead wildfire stems make the best tinder. I'd be surprised if they could be taught to use good dry wood instead of rotting branches on the forest floor.
Look at this:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 … 135705.htm
I take the preservation of seemingly irrelevant actions in humans to mean that humans innately understand that the world is far more complex that is immediately apparent. The chimps don't seem to comprehend that, or consistently don't care.
Animals, for the most part, operate on action-reaction cycles. Even when they plan ahead, "ahead" isn't very far away. The closest thing to human-timescale planning I can think of in the animal kingdom would be food storage in the rodents, leaf cutter ants growing fungus on leaves, bees making honey, and beaver ponds. None of those animals seem to be particular geniuses otherwise, and I would be very surprised if any of those behaviors failed to appear in adults who had never observed their parents performing them. In bees and ants this is definitely the case-- the queens never work, they just start squirting out eggs, in a brand new nest, that develop into competent workers and a functioning society.
Humans, for some as yet unknown reason, have eureka moments. Humans and chimpanzees both hunt, and both have been exposed to wildfires, but humans at some point observed that animals run from fire and wildfires can be used to force animals somewhere, so humans started setting those fires on purpose. Some human somewhere possibly observed that fire is hot, and that rubbing the hands together makes them increasingly hotter, and decided to rub two sticks together to make fire. Humans innovate. Animals mimic or perform mysterious innate behaviors. Tool use in animals is very limited and not very sophisticated... it usually involves smashing something.
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#14 2012-01-04 19:55:03
DupeOrNot wrote:
I would say no, the bonobo cannot be taught. They could certainly be taught to find the wildfire and put an ember in a container-- I think you could teach a bird, dog or pig that too. But I seriously doubt that they could be taught to maintain that ember until it is needed for cooking or warmth. I doubt they could be taught to build a fire that is safe to be around. I doubt they would discover on their own, which dead wildfire stems make the best tinder. I'd be surprised if they could be taught to use good dry wood instead of rotting branches on the forest floor.
Look at this:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 … 135705.htm
Ever heard of 'Monkey see, monkey do'? Be that as it may, your opinion about a bonobo's learning ability weighs less than experimental evidence. Someone would have to set up an experiment to try teaching such behavior before the question could be resolved. I'm not flaming you, I have the the same evidence-based bias towards things like abstinence only sex education and torture. Once things are proven to not work, arguing for them just proves you're either an idiot or you can make money from it.
DupeOrNot wrote:
I take the preservation of seemingly irrelevant actions in humans to mean that humans innately understand that the world is far more complex that is immediately apparent. The chimps don't seem to comprehend that, or consistently don't care.
You'll get no argument from me on that one.
DupeOrNot wrote:
.... None of those animals seem to be particular geniuses otherwise, and I would be very surprised if any of those behaviors failed to appear in adults who had never observed their parents performing them. In bees and ants this is definitely the case-- the queens never work, they just start squirting out eggs, in a brand new nest, that develop into competent workers and a functioning society.
Again, no argument. Many if not most behaviors in lower animals are innate, not learned. On the other hand, if intelligence is measured by the ability to survive in a particular environment then humans will come off badly when compared to many species. Even sponges are smarter than humans on the seafloor.
DupeOrNot wrote:
Tool use in animals is very limited and not very sophisticated... it usually involves smashing something.
Usually, but not always. Many animals including some birds have demonstrated sophisticated problem solving including the use of tools in controlled settings. Human tool use often involves injuring or killing other humans. Humans also wear clothing in the summer and have factory jobs, bonoboes and dolphins don't. Which species is wiser?
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#15 2012-01-04 20:26:01
Tall Paul wrote:
Usually, but not always. Many animals including some birds have demonstrated sophisticated problem solving including the use of tools in controlled settings. Human tool use often involves injuring or killing other humans. Humans also wear clothing in the summer and have factory jobs, bonoboes and dolphins don't. Which species is wiser?
I'd love to be naked and free too, but then I'd probably be dead by now from tooth decay or some 15 year old upstart male murdering me in my sleep to get access to the pussy.
Human civilization is often unpleasant, but it also vastly increases the carrying capacity of the environment *for humans*. It also vastly increases the lifespan for individual humans (and pets). Plus... I cannot even remember the last time I had a persistent flea and louse infestation.
And as for problem solving... that is not the same as planning. The most complicated planning I can think of in the non-human world is crows dropping nuts on the crosswalks and swooping down to eat them after the cars have crushed them and the WALK sign lights. That demonstrates a vision, a plan and successful implementation as well as understanding of a complex and dangerous system.
Lab-based problem solving does not impress me; it forces animals to do something either out of hunger or boredom. In the wild, they would simply not give a shit about the re,d blue, and yellow boxes and go forage. I look forward to more field-gathered evidence as cheap panoramic cameras become abundant in research areas. If chimps were observed deliberately planting seeds I would be very impressed and my opinion of their intellect would rise significantly. But as of now, I've seen nothing to suggest that we're headed for the planet of the apes.
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#16 2012-01-05 10:17:36
DupeOrNot wrote:
Can he create fire from fiction or rapid air
I'll bet he can if he's a Monkey Politician...
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#17 2012-01-08 19:11:32
http://edge.org/conversation/infinite-s … mark-pagel
Auto-edited on 2020-08-02 to update URLs
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#18 2012-01-09 08:58:07
DupeOrNot wrote:
http://edge.org/conversation/infinite-stupidity-edge-conversation-with-mark-pagel
But, we can go back to our earlier discussion of social learning, and ask the question, well, if you were designing a new hand axe, or a new spear, or a new bow and a new arrow, would you really know how to make a spear fly better? Would you really know how to make a bow a better bow? Would you really know how to shape an arrowhead so that it penetrated its prey better? And I think most of us realize that we probably don't know the answers to those questions. And that suggests to us that maybe our own creative process rests on a generative mechanism that isn't very much better than random itself.
Not surprising to find that the University of Reading doesn't have much of an engineering program. Instead of talking with the philosophy faculty, I'd suggest he head down the road to Imperial College London for some real insight on how things are created, designed, and built.
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