dead motherfucker

Last edited by MSG Tripps (2011-09-21 23:47:17)

Even if you could keep the wind loading on a 5.56 round low enough to hit someone at 1000 meters, the terminal ballistics of the round, even at 70+ grains means it would be a much less than lethal shot. It's proven that at that range it will barely penetrate 1/2 inch plywood.

But it can be a challenging shooting platform and there is still plenty of power to penetrate paper.

But me? I would rather he just gave me $500 cash as a thank-you for the business.

When you look at the published coefficients for a NATO standard 77 grain HPBT you get just under 200 ft-lbs of terminal velocity at 1000 yards (subsonic). 500 ft-lbs is considered the lethal energy level for a one shot kill. Sure, if you get hit in the throat or eye or something, you are done. For comparison a 22lr has about 120-150 ft-lbs at the muzzle. We know they can kill you, but it's not terminal.

At 1000 yards a 5.56 drops 421 inches. Do you have that much adjustment in your scope? In a 10 mph crosswind it will drift nearly 10 feet to the side. I guess you could always line up your squad and do volley fire...

Like I said, a challenge for paper. But there is a reason that 7.62 NATO is the 1000 yard round, but I much prefer my 6.5 Grendel for long range within the standard lower envelope.

Em did say "reach out and touch someone".  He made no mention of exit wounds.  That said, I wouldn't want to stand in the open and let him pot shot me from 1000 meters.  My weapon of choice for 1000+ yard head shots is the .408 mag CheyTac.

GooberMcNutly wrote:

Even a blind squirrel finds a nut now and then.

Put your money where your mouth is

GooberMcNutly wrote:

Emmeran wrote:

GooberMcNutly wrote:

Even a blind squirrel finds a nut now and then.

Put your money where your mouth is

How exactly am I going to prove that it's NOT the right round for 1000 yard shots?

The better question is, how are you going to convince the Marine recruiters that you are gay?  I see a quota coming.

phreddy wrote:

The better question is, how are you going to convince the Marine recruiters that you are gay?  I see a quota coming.

Your paranoia is showing again.

Emmeran wrote:

GooberMcNutly wrote:

When you look at the blah blah blah.

Seen it, real life, your internet experts are full of shit.

I was an instructor on the C-7 (5.56mm, Canadian version of the M-16), the minimi, the C1 (7.62 mm), C2 and a long list of other weapons I will say this:

You may have seen one of the luckiest shots imagineable.
You may have seen one of the best shooters in the world.

But as a point of fact, the 5.56 military round is not intended to be lethal at 1000 yd.  For 1000 yd shots, you use 7.62 or .50, (or 7.65 if you`re Russian).  The 5.56 round is intended for close support up to a few hundred yards, and to be light to carry so you can spray shitloads of them around.

An M-16 class of weapons is basically a POS after about 250 yd.  The 5.56 round will tumble and accuracy goes to shit.  Yeah, you wouldn`t want to be hit by one - it`s a flying piece of metal.  Deliberately hitting someone with one at 1000 yd would be a stroke of colossal luck.

Maybe if you custom-built some ultra-long-barrelled monstrosity you could get 1000 yd off a 5.56, but that`s about the only way I can think you`d get the job done.

Blah, blah, blah, internet, blah, blah, blah... please work a match or try the real world.

Peco wrote:

after about 250 yd.  The 5.56 round will tumble and accuracy goes to shit.

Jesus Peco - really? Tumble??  Please explain this to us; we would appreciate documentation.  I'm just trying to imagine this areodynamic projectile which was launched with a specific spin suddenly tumbling in midair and still being able to personally place them within inches at 500 meters with open sights. 


( I suck beyond that )

peco wrote:

I'd love to see you do that.  Not saying you can't, but I'm pretty damn skeptical of that claim...
...Believe what you like.  Those of us who know promise to nod and smile.

You do realize that the standard USMC KD course includes firing from 500 meters?  And while you can qualify before you move back to that meter line you still have to fire 20% of your rounds from that distance, it's gravy time for good shooters but make or break time for everyone else.  So yes, not only have I done it with both the M16A1 and the M16A2, I have no problem with admitting I was nothing special at the task; there were a lot of people far better than me.

Let's face it guys, the NATO 5.56/45 was chosen by a lot of very smart people who did a lot of specific, scientific research on the matter.  You can internet argue all you want but when the balloon goes up this is the round that does the vast majority of the killing in our world today.  Bigger is not always better.

so Em won?

At the risk of reopening this can of worms, I still don't see how I can "prove" or provide practical application proof against anecdotal evidence. I still maintain that properly tuned and using non-military spec hardware you can make a challenging game of trying to hit paper at 1000 yards. I never disputed that. I also maintain that it is not and never was the military's intent to engage the enemy at that distance with that weapons platform and the physics show that it's terminal energy at that distance is very slight. While I am sure that somewhere, somehow some person got killed at 1000 meters by the M-193 round, even expert marksmen would have to be very lucky to do so with issued weapons or ammunition.

Em called bullshit, but if he wants to submit a video of himself putting at least 5 out of 10 rounds in a single string through a man-sized target of 3/4 inch ply at 1000 yards using NATO spec ammunition and a military spec platform (ie satisfying CMP as-issued state, rule 6.2.3), I'll donate $556 to the running of this board. I mean, if it's so easy and lethal at that distance.