It'd be pretty tough to contaminate that entire thing, you'd need a tanker truck at the very least; this is the real world not some action movie.

Emmeran wrote:

It'd be pretty tough to contaminate that entire thing, you'd need a tanker truck at the very least; this is the real world not some action movie.

So, you're buying the story that a group of Pakistani chemical engineers just felt like taking a midnight stroll into a restricted area to stretch their legs?  Who knows what they were planning or scouting, hence the need for waterboarding.  A few minutes of damp coaxing, we have our answers and they are none the worse for wear.  Every water reservoir has an intake which diverts the water to the treatment plant.  I'm sure there are plenty of toxic chemicals which could play hell with the drinking water supply if poured directly into the intake. I know the amount of ricin needed to kill a grown person is minute.  I have a feeling that pouring 50 lbs of the stuff into that intake would cause real trouble.

phreddy wrote:

Emmeran wrote:

It'd be pretty tough to contaminate that entire thing, you'd need a tanker truck at the very least; this is the real world not some action movie.

So, you're buying the story that a group of Pakistani chemical engineers just felt like taking a midnight stroll into a restricted area to stretch their legs?  Who knows what they were planning or scouting, hence the need for waterboarding.  A few minutes of damp coaxing, we have our answers and they are none the worse for wear.  Every water reservoir has an intake which diverts the water to the treatment plant.  I'm sure there are plenty of toxic chemicals which could play hell with the drinking water supply if poured directly into the intake. I know the amount of ricin needed to kill a grown person is minute.  I have a feeling that pouring 50 lbs of the stuff into that intake would cause real trouble.

Nope - but torture is very much forbidden in the Constitution, if the conservatives would bother to check they would find that the 2nd Amendment isn't the only Amendment that matters.

Last edited by Emmeran (2013-05-15 19:06:15)

Emmeran wrote:

Nope - but torture is very much forbidden in the Constitution, if the conservatives would bother to check they would find that the 2nd Amendment isn't the only Amendment that matters.

That's if you stretch the meaning of torture to include pouring water into someone's nose.  Listening to rap music and TV preachers are torture to me too, but, unfortunately, I can't find a prohibition against those in the Constitution either.

phreddy wrote:

Emmeran wrote:

Nope - but torture is very much forbidden in the Constitution, if the conservatives would bother to check they would find that the 2nd Amendment isn't the only Amendment that matters.

That's if you stretch the meaning of torture to include pouring water into someone's nose.  Listening to rap music and TV preachers are torture to me too, but, unfortunately, I can't find a prohibition against those in the Constitution either.

Cruel and unusual - waterboarding creates the sensation of drowning causing the brain to panic - definitely cruel and definitely outside of the tenants of the constitution and the Geneva convention.  Seriously dude - we caught them walking around a lake and you want to torture them?!?

Remember when Water Boarding came up via a Cheney thread years ago and Phwed insisted it wasn't torture? (he got his talking points no doubt from Ann or Fake Neus as usual).  I offered to give him a quick education in being the recipient, and he honestly got all bent out of shape about it.  If it tweren't torture Phwed, why so bent?

But, but, it works for Jack Bauer! Every time. In 3 minutes. And always returns perfectly factual confessions.

Tall Paul wrote:

I'll head him off at the pass: The only real scandal is that the IRS didn't subject every 501(c)(4) filing to an equal level of scrutiny.

And that doesn't seem like a big deal to you, that groups and individuals who were opposed the Democrat candidate for president were singled out to be stalled and harassed by government agencies?  The process of free elections is the very foundation of our republic.  If we allow those in power to subvert it for their own political purposes, we are no better than all the other authoritarian states.  To me this amounts to treason and should carry severe punishment.

Fled wrote:

Beyond that, I get nauseated reading "the very foundation of our republic" type platitudes.  I may be alone in this, but my response to such blather is immediately negative.  Try just making your point without such tired, overdone and overused flourishes.

I make this point because it is obviously something you and others keep forgetting.  Let me rephrase in language to which you are more accustomed.  It's like really really important to keep the dirtbags from fucking up our elections!

As for 501(c)(4)s, I sit on the board of directors of two of them.  I guarantee I know more about them than you do.  Neither of the two I volunteer on are engaged in any political activities, however, I know the political rules.  When I say Obama's IRS is targeting his political opposition, I am not just referring to TEA parties.  This scandal is going to expose harassment of a lot of people and groups who oppose his policies, and I don't just mean donors to TEA parties either.  Just an FYI, TEA parties have every right under IRS rules to oppose the policies of candidates or elected officials so long as political activism is not their primary purpose. They cannot endorse or campaign for specific candidates.

Emmeran wrote:

This has happened in one form or another under every President since the IRS was created - consider it a great American tradition if you will.

Nothing ever changes.

May I quote you on this nonchalant response if the Republicans do the same thing when/if they ever get in power again?

whosasailorthen wrote:

Emmeran wrote:

This has happened in one form or another under every President since the IRS was created - consider it a great American tradition if you will.

Nothing ever changes.

May I quote you on this nonchalant response if the Republicans do the same thing when/if they ever get in power again?

Actually, I believe he is correct.  Certain presidents have abused their access to IRS records.  However, there is a good chance this scandal will make the others pale, especially in regards to attempts to influence the election.

whosasailorthen wrote:

Emmeran wrote:

This has happened in one form or another under every President since the IRS was created - consider it a great American tradition if you will.

Nothing ever changes.

May I quote you on this nonchalant response if the Republicans do the same thing when/if they ever get in power again?

They will and they will.  Have we all forgot about Richard Nixon?

I guess what is really upsetting Phwedd is that Democrats might start acting like Republicans.

Badly phrased.  I was putting his spin on it.

Fled, if they enforced the 'rules' against both the liberal and conservative 501(c)(4) applicants equally, I'd be right there with you.  It's the unequal enforcement that's at issue.

Beyond that, there's the release of confidentially (and inappropriately) collected information from those conservative applicants to liberal groups. 

And the release of tax forms of conservative candidates to liberal contacts. 

And the targeting of reporters with audits.

And the targeting of key conservative contributors with audits, FDA investigations and other agency investigations.

And the withholding of the announcement of the awareness of these inappropriate (and probably illegal) actions until after the election.

Had this sort of targeting, which was known internally as early as 2010, been announced during the election cycle, I think the election would have looked very different indeed.

Last edited by whosasailorthen (2013-05-17 14:27:30)

Don't misinterpret my comments, please.  I think what the IRS did on the 5011(c)(4) applications was awful.  I just don't like all the sloppy analysis.  Em is right that this kind of thing has been done under administrations of both parties.  Administrations past have, for political reasons, misused the IRS, FBI, CIA, DOD -- you name it.  Of course, this still does not excuse the current IRS's conduct.

For what it is worth, based on today's testimony by the IG, it does not appear that there was any involvement of the White House, the democratic party, or any other outside person or organization.  If that remains the best evidence, then it will all be about some IRS agents who messed up in how they selected and reviewed applications for tax-advantaged status.  I don't know anything about the other things whos alleges, although they sound like traditional American political whining and invention.

Fled wrote:

For what it is worth, based on today's testimony by the IG, it does not appear that there was any involvement of the White House, the democratic party, or any other outside person or organization.

That was then.  This is today.

“For me, it’s about collaboration.” — National Treasury Employees Union  President Colleen Kelley on the relationship between the anti-Tea Party IRS union and the Obama White House.

The day after she logged in for a visit with Obama in the White House, the IRS began the harassment of TEA Parties.  If it quacks like a duck.

Pussy wrote:

And what have you and yours done instead of helping America? One witch hunt after another.

Witch hunting is called for when your government is infested with witches.  As for what have conservatives done?  Tried to make this country energy independent while fighting Obama at every turn, tried to grow small businesses, but are buried under taxes, regulations, and Obamacare, tried to keep Obama from feeding our young men and women to the enemy as cannon fodder, fought to protect your constitutional rights, tried to keep our debt under control while Obama sells our children's futures down the toilet.  Take your head out of your ass and open your eyes.

phreddy wrote:

Pussy wrote:

And what have you and yours done instead of helping America? One witch hunt after another.

Witch hunting is called for when your government is infested with witches.  As for what have conservatives done?  Tried to make this country energy independent while fighting Obama at every turn, tried to grow small businesses, but are buried under taxes, regulations, and Obamacare, tried to keep Obama from feeding our young men and women to the enemy as cannon fodder, fought to protect your constitutional rights, tried to keep our debt under control while Obama sells our children's futures down the toilet.  Take your head out of your ass and open your eyes.

I'm calling bullshit, bullshit, bullshit, bullshit, bullshit, bullshit, bullshit, and finally bullshit. Those aren't what conservatives have done, that's a list of what Republicans have claimed to be the motivations for what they have done. What they have actually done is the polar opposite of those claims in every instance. To make matters worse they are using bogus 501(c)(4)s to force the public to underwrite their charlatanry. Try again, Phred.