Dmtdust wrote:

Or to Blockade Food and Medicine?
Or to assassinate another countries elected officials?

Unfortunately most evidence points to those officials being assassinated from within, if you recall the only time these guys stop going after Isreal is when the kill each other.

As far as the blockades, that is a valid and legal form of warfare.

I'm very amused with your perception that warfare shouldn't be ugly, this is a war between two countries and means the populations not just the soldiers. 

Your just pissed cuz your team is getting it's ass kicked and just surrendered unconditionally.

Dmtdust wrote:

O really?  I just find it hilarious that one more time, Israel is painted as a victim.  Don't you get tired of that role?

I don't see them as victims - the entire thing is a fuck story if you ask me.  But Isreal ain't going away anytime soon and Hamas needs to come to terms with that fact.

Congratulations on that targeting Jacob!: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/w … .ece?token

The Israeli military has denied using white phosphorus shells in the Gaza offensive, although an investigation by The Times has revealed that dozens of Palestinians in Gaza have sustained serious injuries from the substance, which burns at extremely high temperatures.

The Geneva Convention of 1980 proscribes the use of white phosphorus as a weapon of war in civilian areas, although it can be used to create a smokescreen. The Israel Defence Forces (IDF) said today that all weapons used in Gaza were "within the scope of international law".

WP is typically used to mark targets for air strikes, the description of this attack sounds like target marking not a strike.  Odd how we don't know the nationality of the "UN" workers.

This is why you don't do what Hamas keeps doing, in the end you are just killing your own people.

I personally don't think Isreal should have been "created" in the first place, but now 70 years later it is a done deal.  If I were Isreal surrounded by nations who state publically that they wish to destroy me, I would meet every attack - regardless of how minor - the same way.

And if someone with a previous history of attacking me was trying to organize more attacks, I would assassinate him - quickly.

Suggested reading for those that think this is a victory for Israel...
http://palestinethinktank.com/2009/01/1 … ose-again/

fnord wrote:

As someone pointed out above, it took the Irish centuries to do it, but they cleared the English out of all but the northern portion of their country.  Israel is doomed, it may take the Palestinians and the Arab world a similar time period, but the Juden will be driven into the sea. The Egyptians are being paid off with US foreign aid, and the Israelis have told them the Aswan dam will be bombed if they attack.  The other Arab countries have internal concerns that are occupying them now; they are just waiting for the right time.

That was my quote.  People always mention the real lack of Indian's resistance to the whites. (I suggest reading 1491 to play catch up) as an excuse for Israel pulling the same stunt in the 20th century. (just call that enabling, 'kay?)  Well, it stands to reason then that anyone can misbehave without consequences.  Not So.  The world has moved on since the 17th-19th century in many ways.  YES, it is still fucked up.  YES, Hamas could be considered Dickwads, but so was Sein Fein, and look where Jerry Adams is now day kids. I nearly lost my wife in the IRA bombing campaign in London, so don't think I have a love for the IRA.  History is on the side of the indigenous.  If you think that is a crock, then you are not being attentive to what is going on, and the developing trends of the 21st century.

Dmtdust wrote:

fnord wrote:

As someone pointed out above, it took the Irish centuries to do it, but they cleared the English out of all but the northern portion of their country.  Israel is doomed, it may take the Palestinians and the Arab world a similar time period, but the Juden will be driven into the sea. The Egyptians are being paid off with US foreign aid, and the Israelis have told them the Aswan dam will be bombed if they attack.  The other Arab countries have internal concerns that are occupying them now; they are just waiting for the right time.

That was my quote.  People always mention the real lack of Indian's resistance to the whites. (I suggest reading 1491 to play catch up) as an excuse for Israel pulling the same stunt in the 20th century. (just call that enabling, 'kay?)  Well, it stands to reason then that anyone can misbehave without consequences.  Not So.  The world has moved on since the 17th-19th century in many ways.  YES, it is still fucked up.  YES, Hamas could be considered Dickwads, but so was Sein Fein, and look where Jerry Adams is now day kids. I nearly lost my wife in the IRA bombing campaign in London, so don't think I have a love for the IRA.  History is on the side of the indigenous.  If you think that is a crock, then you are not being attentive to what is going on, and the developing trends of the 21st century.

Tell it to the Souix Nation

fnord wrote:

As someone pointed out above, it took the Irish centuries to do it, but they cleared the English out of all but the northern portion of their country.  Israel is doomed, it may take the Palestinians and the Arab world a similar time period, but the Juden will be driven into the sea. The Egyptians are being paid off with US foreign aid, and the Israelis have told them the Aswan dam will be bombed if they attack.  The other Arab countries have internal concerns that are occupying them now; they are just waiting for the right time.

I'm disappointed Fnord...you know that only works if the indigeneous are white.

Realistically this is religion central, it's all about a city/area that all three Abrahamic religions claim as their own; your examples are apples to cinderblocks.

Emmeran wrote:

Dmtdust wrote:

Suggested reading for those that think this is a victory for Israel...
http://palestinethinktank.com/2009/01/1 … ose-again/

Wait - we're supposed to get an unbiased prospective from your anti-Isreali websites??

Thanks Rush Limbaugh, glad you could join us.

That was a native born Israeli who wrote that.  Served in the IDF and all.  What's your problem?

Dmtdust wrote:

That was a native born Israeli who wrote that.  Served in the IDF and all.  What's your problem?

Even the Jews hate the Jews.

Trust their King.

And on the other hand:

http://www.khaleejtimes.com/DisplayArti … inion&col=


Blanche Dubois Moment of Arabs

Reem Al-Faisal
10 January 2009

I have been watching and waiting, as so many others in the Arab world and the rest
of the globe, for Arab leaders to do something to stop the holocaust in Gaza. But they
have done nothing. As I watched the tragedy unfold in Gaza, the name "Blanche
Dubois" came to my mind. You will ask why Blanche Dubois and many will ask 'who'?

Blanche Dubois is the hero or anti-hero of the play "A Street Car Named Desire" by
the American playwright Tennessee Williams. Her character is represented in the play
as an ageing beauty that is a scion of an aristocratic family, which lost its position and
wealth in society whereby she - Blanche - was forced to become a courtesan living
on her wits and cunning in order to recapture some of the luxurious life she was
used to as a young woman.

The play shows her in the end of her days as she begins losing her mind, when she
is confronted with her degradation both physical and moral. In the end, she has a
total mental breakdown and her sister calls a mental asylum. As Blanche Dubois
leaves holding the arm of the doctor, who will be supervising her at the asylum, she
turns to him and says, "I have always depended on the kindness of strangers".

This is what I meant when I said that the situation in the Arab states reminded me of
Blanche Dubois. Our Arab leaders have turned us all into a kind of Blanche Dubois -
longing for an ancient stature we no longer possess, and utterly dependent not on
our ability nor our strength, but exactly the "kindness of strangers".

Our leaders faced with the massacre in Gaza have either been silent or incapable of
showing any kind of resolve of purpose or strength of will. They have abandoned all
the tools of state, political or military, and rushed here and there asking for the help
of the European Union, French President Nicolas Sarkozy, and the UN Security
Council.

In other cases, foreign leaders have offered their help like Turkey's Prime Minister
Erdogan or taken action like the President of Venezuela expelling the Israeli
ambassador.  Yet in the Arab world they are either colluding with Israel in its crime or
terrified of challenging the West and Israel even in the smallest way.

What is wrong? Do the Arab leaders not see that their people are boiling with rage
and would be very willing to accept any sacrifice in order to stop what is going on in
Gaza? Have they lost all connection with their people?

We want serious action. We want you to give us the respect we deserve and we are
willing to assume all the troubles, which come with such a decision. Stop treating us
as ignorant children or silly dreamers who don't understand the ways of the world.

We are not minors and you are not the only adults in our lands. We demand more
action than sending medicines or money.

We ask for an immediate cessation of all hostilities from the Israelis and their retreat
from Gaza.
We ask that you take them to the world court for wars against humanity and that the
states, which have relations with Israel, should sever their ties immediately.

And if those demands aren't met by Israel and the West, then we demand that you
use all, and any, means we have to put pressure on them to do so. We want you to
cut relations with the West and America.

We want you to use all that we have of commercial, financial and political power to
bring about the freedom of Palestine and the respect for Arab sovereignty.

Please stop debasing us by running to every nation on earth as mendicants. If you
have become Blanche Dubois, we refuse to follow you. We refuse to accept that a
nation of more than 300 million can't shape their fate by themselves.  Hamas and
Hezbollah, before it, are showing us the way. They have proven that you do get
better results when you say no.

However, Arab leadership - if that is the correct appellation for it - has become so
used to giving up that they can no longer comprehend the concept of resistance
even to save whatever is left of their dignity.

*Reem Al Faisal is a Saudi photographer and writer based in Jeddah

Horseshit and sugar. . . amazing. . .

Emmeran wrote:

lechero wrote:

Horseshit and sugar. . . amazing. . .

And that, boys and girls, is what happens if you have a crack or air pocket in your solid propellant.

And we can justify the deaths of nearly 400 children because of this?  Wow.

Of course, the fine upstanding Israeli's (who of course did not break this cease fire first, no, not the Israeli's, of course not!) were targeting these dangerous tikes all along.

Dmtdust wrote:

Face it Em, your just an old testament kinda guy.  You know, for the sin of a few, destroy the whole enchilada. 

My work here is pretty much done.  So far, you have negated the Hague Conventions, and everything since written into international law in your justifications of these acts.

I know when enough is enough.  I don't support people lobbing weapons a little better than coke bottle rockets, and responsible for for 10 deaths, (out of 2800 launches) when on the other hand, you do support people who find it perfectly fine to use phosporous, starvation, and more to the tune of over 3000 dead since 2000.  You are right.  You are on the side of the just.  They have better weapons, which makes them correct in their actions, whereas the assholes with the coke bottle rockets, well hey, they and everyone around them deserve what they get.

See, now this is where I become confused. 

1. You are willing to ignore that fact that Hamas and the 70% that voted them in have a standing policy (constitutionalized) to destroy Israel and all Israelis.   

2. You know that they have launched rockets non-stop at Israel and send out suicide bombers whenever possible; and that they broke the physical cease fire by launching 5" free flight rockets. (10~15lb anti-personnel warhead)

3. You understand that Israel is a surrounded by nations who make it a policy to destroy them.

4. You understand that the western world still feels moderately guilty about the holocaust.

5.  You know that Hamas knowingly exposes their populace to harm in order to garner international sympathy.

6.  You know that war sucks.

Why then do you fail to see that Israel after returning Gaza to self rule and tearing down the settlements cannot allow themselves to turn a blind eye to continued attacks.

Please read

After perusing the annexes you might notice that Israel's lawyers have boned up on their stuff, they are acting within the letter and spirit of the convention.  Hamas on the other hand is not.

I'm not sure if you understand, but I've had this drilled so deep into my skull that I'd swear it's imbedded in the bone itself (which there is quite of bit of);  we do run a highly professional military here in the US, well educated and trained. 


and finally - I support neither side in this mess; and there won't be a winner as both teams see them selves as the native population. Maybe if we could get them to put down their weapons for a generation or two we might see progress, but I doubt it.

Dear Mr. President The One,

We offer you this gift to celebrate your assension.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/art … gD95P4LMOA

Love,
Olmert, Ehud and Bibi

Dmtdust wrote:

Here is a little dose of hubris: http://www.amconmag.com/article/2009/jan/26/00006/

That article is a bit over the top, the reality is Israel, like everywhere else, is made up of competing factions; some of those factions are moderate and want peace - the others are militant and want a biblical solution.  The reality of this offensive lies somewhere inbetween.

The suggestion has been made on talk radio locally (Bill Handel), that the current purpose is to appear "mad dog crazy"; that is to give the appearance of "no holds barred" response to any action against them.  When looked at logically this appears to be a plausible description of current events; they respond to attacks like an abused pit bull and the release completely at their own descretion. 

This would be the "playground loner" defense, where if you get picked on by anyone at all you punish them as quickly and visciously as possible to send a message to everyone else.

Valid strategy in my book; however I will not support their cause untill Jerusalem is recognized as a free city.  Somehow the idea that any government can control Jerusalem which is so important to the three most violent religions in our modern world, well, it scares me.

orangeplus wrote:

It was all completely pointless

I thought everyone understood that from the git go.

Dmtdust wrote:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/jan/20/gaza-israelandthepalestinians

The Israelis didn't target civilians, that claim is ludicrious and casts doubt on the rest of his opinion piece.

This is targeting civilians and this also.

Last edited by Emmeran (2009-01-21 13:19:21)

Why is the Israeli Gov't not publishing commanders names then?  War Crimes son, War Crimes.  A little Phosphorous goes a long way.  There was no need or application of that weapon warranted.

Sorry - Didn't mean to interrupt.  Please, Gentle-Men, do carry on.

Dmtdust wrote:

Why is the Israeli Gov't not publishing commanders names then?  War Crimes son, War Crimes.  A little Phosphorous goes a long way.  There was no need or application of that weapon warranted.

Sorry, 5" rockets with WP just isn't that functional of a munition for targeting babies; if they were running out MER packs full of APAM I would agree with you, - or maybe some firebombs - or flat out artillary barrage.

The IDF are professionals and do understand that there is a proper tool for the job...

When was the last time anyone published commander's names?  Particularly in a land of terrorists and assasins?

BTW: Why would you find APAMs unacceptable, but cluster bomb munitions Ok? It's more or less the same concept, except the APAMs are smaller and more directly targeted. I would find the reverse making more sense.

Emmeran wrote:

And yes the Palestinians need to realize that they are beaten and forced to accept the two state solution.

Are you implying that Israel has offered a reasonable "two-state solution?"  Be-Cause, I don't think that the people of Palestine can with-stand an-other "generous offer" at this point.

This is a scenario where the bunnies breed faster and end up eating the fox.  Mark my words.  Enough tears for everyone.