"My daughter told me what she saw and I stand by what my daughter saw," Mark Lawrence said. "I think (school officials) are trying to do some damage control."

Yeah, I'm sure that theses two teachers and the principle have simply con-spired to make your daughter out to be a lying, little, bitch.  It's obvious where she "gets it" from.

I re-fused to stand or re-cite the "Pledge Of Allegiance" my-self in school.  Pledging allegiance to a piece of cloth is just empty-headed pseudo-patriotism.

the one from the movies or the real one?

Decadence wrote:

I re-fused to stand or re-cite the "Pledge Of Allegiance" my-self in school.  Pledging allegiance to a piece of cloth is just empty-headed pseudo-patriotism.

The same here. My friends would try to yank me onto my feet. Not out of patriotism, but because we were all stoned and they didn't want the attention. Even at that young age, I noticed the irony of living in a free country that forced school kids to daily proclaim their loyalty to a symbol. The ritual reminded me of the propaganda programs of the commies we were taught to hate.

Last edited by nfidelbastard (2009-09-01 09:50:04)

nfidelbastard wrote:

Decadence wrote:

I re-fused to stand or re-cite the "Pledge Of Allegiance" my-self in school.  Pledging allegiance to a piece of cloth is just empty-headed pseudo-patriotism.

The same here. My friends would try to yank me onto my feet. Not out of patriotism, but because we were all stoned and they didn't want the attention. Even at that young age, I noticed the irony of living in a free country that forced school kids to daily proclaim their loyalty to a symbol. The ritual reminded me of the propaganda programs of the commies we were taught to hate.

My friends you are somewhat confused by the issue.  As a society we have an obligation to work together to towards our continued existence and this pledge is to a flag which serves as our most visible representation of our constitution, our way of life, our common existance.

The ritual is an important part of introducing the concept of national identity and responsibility as a citizen. For a liberal it is thumbing your nose at Rush and for a conservative it's flipping off Pelosi - the Libretarian should be reminded that it's about a Constitution and the Anarchists are fucking clueless.

We all understand that rebellious teenagers consider this a waste of time and frankly while you don't have to pledge simple manners indicate you should stand quietly if you don't want to pledge. 

I do fail to see the irony, this is a militant and patriotic act requested of those who live in a country which has by all accounts the most freedoms and highest living standard of any available and that this same country was forged in war, ripped from it's original owners by military force and expanded through empirical means, greed and a sense of entitlement.

Shit folks - this act stands for everything we are.  The irony is that those who are able to enjoy our power, freedoms and wealth rebel against the very concepts that created it.

George Carlin wrote:

The flag is a symbol and I leave those to the symbol minded.

nfidelbastard wrote:

That should be reworded to say "indoctrinating the concept of national identity". Actually teaching students the ideals set forth in the Constitution and the Bill of Rights would be a much better way of guaranteeing a citizenry who feel invested in their country. Oh sure, the lessons may go right over the heads of the clueless, but their blind patriotism is what fueled the our recent history. And maybe even they could grasp some of the key concepts like human rights and innocent until proven guilty. Of course, it may not be in the best interest of a government to have an educated populace.

Nope, it isn't rebelling "against the very concepts that created it" it is in fact exercising the very concepts that created our country. The founding fathers said no pledge to the flag. It's a socialist creation anyway and the Constitution gives me the right to abstain. I use all the rights I can. I only wish I were bisexual so I could exercise my right to buggery.

All very true and accurate statements; and statements that are only made by one nutured in the warmth and safety of a secure and powerful society.

HEY Em!   Lay off the Anarchist.  thanx.  Bai!

nfidelbastard wrote:

Well yes, because I exist here and now. But if you're saying one can only do these things in a country like ours, then you deny the possibility that our country could have been created by a rebellion against a tyrannical government who didn't believe in the freedoms we now have. It can't be both ways.  We seem to have a couple of circular discussions running concurrently.

Having said all that, I have no problem with a patriot. I have a problem with blind patriotism. Other words for it are tribalism and nationalism. I want what's best for my country, but not at the expense of everyone else. Blind patriotism allows one to ignore one's morals where other countries are concerned. It can also be turned inward, as with the McCarthy hearings and to an extent with the Patriot Act.

My refusal to say the pledge or sing the Star Spangled Banner with my hand held over my heart may be silly. I don't  know. But I also don't bow my head when the Christians pray and I don't kneel with the Muslims. But I do have manners and don't make a scene during any of these rituals. I just don't participate.

I'm not arguing, just saying.  Kind of along the lines that vegetarianism is a luxury of a wealthy society (and religious freaks).  I actually agree with your statements when applied to a thinking, logical individual; we do need to keep it simple for the children and imbeciles though.

Last edited by Emmeran (2009-09-01 13:51:08)

Decadence wrote:

Emmeran wrote:

. . . a country which has by all accounts the most freedoms . . .

Actually, I think that would be the Netherlands.  We do have the highest prison population by percent-age though; So, at least we're number on in some-thing.

I stand corrected - let me rephrase:  "a country which has by all popular accounts the most freedoms"

Em wrote:

My friends you are somewhat confused by the issue.  As a society we have an obligation to work together to towards our continued existence and this pledge is to a flag which serves as our most visible representation of our constitution, our way of life, our common existance.

Bullshit.  The pledge is something we should be offered to take when we turn 18 and not before.  It's not something we should be goaded into doing at every public function.  I took the pledge when I was young, I meant it, and I stand by it.  Making me stand and recite it by rote in front of a room full of people is an insult.

I'll pledge to the Constitution.  I'll pledge to the Declaration of Independence.  The flag?  What's the fucking point?  Why obfuscate the issue?

The thing that bothers me about the pledge is the enforced nature of it.  Students are punished for exercising the very freedom of expression that their jailersteachers want them to be loyal to.  It doesn't make any fucking sense.

phreddy wrote:

jesusluvspegging wrote:

I'll pledge to the Constitution.  I'll pledge to the Declaration of Independence.  The flag?  What's the fucking point?  Why obfuscate the issue?

The thing that bothers me about the pledge is the enforced nature of it.  Students are punished for exercising the very freedom of expression that their jailersteachers want them to be loyal to.  It doesn't make any fucking sense.

For the most part, I concur.  However, the mindless homage to the flag does actually mention "and to the country for which it stands."  Like I said, once each lifetime is enough.

These are supposed to be moments of reflection upon the sobriety (Ben Franklin aside) of our national undertaking; it is very easy to forget how often in even our very recent past that the issue has been in doubt.  And many appear to consider the issue in doubt today.

and frankly folks, it would be really silly to fly the constitution on flag poles around the country so old glory will have to do.

orangeplus wrote:

Fucking jingo bullshit

Yeah - but the young, dumg guys with the guns believe in it; that would be the trump card over high ideas.