#3 2010-07-25 21:21:13
Wikileaks has already released the records to The Guardian, The New York Times and Germany's Der Spiegel, all of whom have published front page stories based on them,
sez Gawker.
I had read that Wikileaks was working on something big connected to Afghanistan; but this mode of releasing it seems brilliant to me--involving the "reputable" media will make it seem legitimate to the Luddites in our midst.
I read a small piece somewhere about the creator of Wikileaks; he's some rich white boy from Australia (I think) being all socially conscious and wanting to improve humanity's lot...
...Ah, here it is. He actually seems rather admirable. I knew a few self-destructive idealistic martyr types like him back in college, but I always assumed guys like that either grew out of it or died young.
I hope Assange stays as smart (and cautious) as he's been up to this point, so he can do more of these Good Deeds.
Last edited by George Orr (2010-07-25 21:21:54)
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#4 2010-07-25 21:23:20
I know this is only day one of the released reports, but I seriously expected something more damning considering all the hype that was behind it. So far there is practically no news here other then the reports were released
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#5 2010-07-25 22:29:01
Leaking classified military documents is the new cutting: "he had been through a break-up with his girlfriend... he was feeling lonely and unsupported by his family"
I'll thank Specialist... whoops... Private First Class Manning when I get blown up by an IED.
Last edited by taffy (2010-07-26 02:42:26)
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#6 2010-07-25 23:22:19
Make that Private and he will be doing 52 years of very hard time. Only one type gets worse treatment than a child molester and thats a traitor.
That there folks is our new Hanoi Jane; he's just done more to advance Taliban propaganda then they could have done in a century. Nevermind the right-wing short memory take on this; it will all be blamed on Obama.
Facts are we knew all of this, spelling it out only helps the enemy; at the end of the day it all comes down to one stupid act of treason by one very stupid kid.
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#7 2010-07-27 11:04:57
If you can't be an honorable warrior on the battlefield, I don't want you in my armed forces. That goes for trigger happy gun jocks who shoot into crowds of fleeing people. Just because you put on a uniform doesn't absolve you of behaving like your mother was watching everything you do.
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#8 2010-07-27 12:44:44
Some of the info coming out of these documents is pretty damned interesting. And it is obvious that some of it is classified to save face for the military. However, I'm with Emmeran on this one. When you join the military, you make a covenant not to question reasons behind the decisions of your superiors and certainly not to reveal any classified information. The old saying, "Your's is not to wonder why, your's is but to do or die" is not just a clever slogan.
Turning over classified documents, even for so-called reasons of conscience, is treason.
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#9 2010-07-27 21:18:18
phreddy wrote:
Some of the info coming out of these documents is pretty damned interesting. And it is obvious that some of it is classified to save face for the military. However, I'm with Emmeran on this one. When you join the military, you make a covenant not to question reasons behind the decisions of your superiors and certainly not to reveal any classified information. The old saying, "Your's is not to wonder why, your's is but to do or die" is not just a clever slogan.
Turning over classified documents, even for so-called reasons of conscience, is treason.
Yeah, and the maximum sentence of 52 years isn't enough if he lives longer than that.
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#10 2010-07-27 21:33:08
phreddy wrote:
Some of the info coming out of these documents is pretty damned interesting. And it is obvious that some of it is classified to save face for the military. However, I'm with Emmeran on this one. When you join the military, you make a covenant not to question reasons behind the decisions of your superiors and certainly not to reveal any classified information. The old saying, "Your's is not to wonder why, your's is but to do or die" is not just a clever slogan.
Turning over classified documents, even for so-called reasons of conscience, is treason.
And that would put Daniel Ellsberg where?
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#11 2010-07-27 21:40:29
Emmeran wrote:
Make that Private and he will be doing 52 years of very hard time. Only one type gets worse treatment than a child molester and thats a traitor.
That there folks is our new Hanoi Jane; he's just done more to advance Taliban propaganda then they could have done in a century. Nevermind the right-wing short memory take on this; it will all be blamed on Obama.
Facts are we knew all of this, spelling it out only helps the enemy; at the end of the day it all comes down to one stupid act of treason by one very stupid kid.
So, it's a fact that there was nothing new in anything he released, but aside from that , spelling it out is treason...... interesting. What would the punishment be if he had drawn us a picture, instead of just spelling it out for us?
Last edited by Tall Paul (2010-07-27 21:46:42)
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#12 2010-07-27 22:42:58
phreddy wrote:
Some of the info coming out of these documents is pretty damned interesting. And it is obvious that some of it is classified to save face for the military.
Hey, we agree. Especially because saving face for the military isn't just a cosmetic, political thing--it's goddamn essential to turn Afghanistan from a festering shithole into a quasi-stable country that can't support people who want to kill us and overthrow Pakistan's government.
Seriously if the people, who "have a right to know," knew about everything from every war, we'd still have slaves, and Germany would run Europe.
Anybody else find it ironic that these people believe in no secrets--everybody's qualified to evaluate all data--and the leader of wikileaks won't say where they're headquartered? Nobody even knows where that dude was born.
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#14 2010-07-28 01:27:21
"Seriously if the people, who "have a right to know," knew about everything from every war, we'd still have slaves, and Germany would run Europe. "
Plz explain.
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#15 2010-07-28 07:57:24
Dmtdust wrote:
"Seriously if the people, who "have a right to know," knew about everything from every war, we'd still have slaves, and Germany would run Europe. "
Plz explain.
If people knew how far awry wars like WWII and the Civil War were going midway through, we likely would have given up in 1942/3 and 1863 respectively. Stopping midway would have been far worse than having been lied to.
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#16 2010-07-29 02:23:08
Interesting
Julian Assange, the editor of the WikiLeaks website that on Monday released some 92,000 classified military documents, has told the German newsweekly Der Spiegel that he "loved crushing bastards." We wonder if the "bastards" he has in mind include the dozens of Afghan civilians named in the document dump as U.S. military informants.
His next logical step would be to kill himself.
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#17 2010-07-29 05:18:43
taffy wrote:
Interesting
Julian Assange, the editor of the WikiLeaks website that on Monday released some 92,000 classified military documents, has told the German newsweekly Der Spiegel that he "loved crushing bastards." We wonder if the "bastards" he has in mind include the dozens of Afghan civilians named in the document dump as U.S. military informants.
His next logical step would be to kill himself.
That right there is unforgivable. It also may have lost us a good chunk of our current intelligence people as well as a good chunk of any future help we may have received.
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#18 2010-08-02 20:16:07
You would think the fire alarm would be enough and you wouldn't wait for the building to be on fire; but the fucking Army can and does fuck up everything.
The fucker had posted shit on YouTube previously - and they let him keep his TS/SCI. This explains why the Marines have taken possesion of this turd and are holding him at Quantico.
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#19 2010-08-02 22:05:43
“Don't do what I did. Don't wait until the bombs are falling in Iran. Don't wait until people are dying. Go to the press and reveal.” - Daniel Ellsberg
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#20 2010-08-02 22:24:20
I support Mr. Assange. All he's doing is exposing the people that take half of the productive capacity of people and tell me what I'm supposed to do with my money, body and mind. I'm supposed to defend the govt. for going out and killing people I don't even know with money that they took from my in a non-voluntary fashion? I have no idea how people can defend another group of people that take their money by theft and can only deal with other people by force.
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#21 2010-08-02 23:30:18
Dirk: Words of gold, thanks.
Our government has kept us in a perpetual state of fear - kept us in a continuous stampede of patriotic fervour - with the cry of grave national emergency. Always, there has been some terrible evil at home, or some monstrous foreign power that was going to gobble us up if we did not blindly rally behind it. - Douglas MacArthur
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#22 2010-08-02 23:38:31
Dirckman wrote:
I support Mr. Assange. All he's doing is exposing the people that take half of the productive capacity of people and tell me what I'm supposed to do with my money, body and mind. I'm supposed to defend the govt. for going out and killing people I don't even know with money that they took from my in a non-voluntary fashion? I have no idea how people can defend another group of people that take their money by theft and can only deal with other people by force.
Nah mate, you don't get it. He didn't redact the names; he hung his own out to dry just so he could feel important. I'm cool with the info, it's the people he just killed so he could feel a little bit important that has me calling him traitor. He has our blood on his hands.
His fate awaits him in Leavenworth and it is very well deserved.
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#23 2010-08-03 00:23:59
Emmeran wrote:
the Marines
?
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#24 2010-08-03 12:33:33
~click~
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#25 2010-08-03 12:40:32
Emmeran wrote:
Dirckman wrote:
I support Mr. Assange. All he's doing is exposing the people that take half of the productive capacity of people and tell me what I'm supposed to do with my money, body and mind. I'm supposed to defend the govt. for going out and killing people I don't even know with money that they took from my in a non-voluntary fashion? I have no idea how people can defend another group of people that take their money by theft and can only deal with other people by force.
Nah mate, you don't get it. He didn't redact the names; he hung his own out to dry just so he could feel important. I'm cool with the info, it's the people he just killed so he could feel a little bit important that has me calling him traitor. He has our blood on his hands.
His fate awaits him in Leavenworth and it is very well deserved.
Unfortunately, he will never see the cell he deserves. The U.S. has a poor recent record for extraditing criminals from so-called friendly nations. I assume the Aussies don't consider publication of U.S. secrets and the resulting harm it causes a violation of their laws.
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#26 2010-08-03 12:49:40
was discharged from the Corps as a first lieutenant in 1957
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#27 2010-08-03 12:52:14
phreddy wrote:
Unfortunately, he will never see the cell he deserves. The U.S. has a poor recent record for extraditing criminals from so-called friendly nations. I assume the Aussies don't consider publication of U.S. secrets and the resulting harm it causes a violation of their laws.
I'm not concerned with the WikiLeaks guy, that's his perogative - I'm tweaked about the US Soldier who sold his own down the river.
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#28 2010-08-03 13:56:15
Emmeran wrote:
phreddy wrote:
Unfortunately, he will never see the cell he deserves. The U.S. has a poor recent record for extraditing criminals from so-called friendly nations. I assume the Aussies don't consider publication of U.S. secrets and the resulting harm it causes a violation of their laws.
I'm not concerned with the WikiLeaks guy, that's his perogative - I'm tweaked about the US Soldier who sold his own down the river.
It looked as though you were calling for Assange's head. He had the opportunity to redact the names before he posted them. As for Manning, why did they ever do away with the firing squad?
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#29 2010-08-03 14:34:41
I don't understand how people don't understand that 1. actual armed forces are standing between you and some foreign asshole causing interruption to your Cheetos eating session or drive to the cubicle or breathing. and 2. leaking information like this is harmful to the mission.
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#30 2010-08-03 14:53:20
Yes, I am afeared of the Canadians and Mexicans. Protect me!
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#31 2010-08-03 17:07:29
I think WikiLeaks had a responsibility to redact the names, SSN's etc also.
That being said it's probably how they'll nail them, there have to be tens of thousands of SSN's he just posted
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#32 2010-08-04 01:19:05
Probably tons of our allies dead already.
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#33 2010-08-04 01:48:38
Says who, in any detail at all?
And anyway, aren't most of our native agents going to wind up dead anyway?
Last edited by Tall Paul (2010-08-04 07:10:08)
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#34 2010-08-04 02:26:57
Taffy, I'm sure you'd feel the same way if you were a German or a Japanese soldier in WWII. Those soldiers had no less honor and commitment than our armed forces, and I'd be disappointed if that weren't the case. The fact remains that they were fighting for what their governments told them to... the good of the German and Japanese people.
It's arguable whether their governments were telling them the truth.
The fact is, it's not necessarily the truth that has put you or our country and way of life in harms way.
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#35 2010-08-04 12:03:10
I was always hoping for the day I'd get compared to a Nazi here.
It's no secret Afghanistan is full of assholes, that's why we're over there. Everyone acts shocked that it's ugly and difficult. The point is we're trying to keep spillover to our country to a minimum. Am I wrong, or what?
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#36 2010-08-04 12:19:12
There is a difference between a German Soldier and a Nazi, thanks.
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#37 2010-08-04 14:13:36
taffy wrote:
I was always hoping for the day I'd get compared to a Nazi here.
Context Failure!
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#38 2010-08-04 19:07:25
taffy wrote:
I don't understand how people don't understand that 1. actual armed forces are standing between you and some foreign asshole causing interruption to your Cheetos eating session or drive to the cubicle or breathing. and 2. leaking information like this is harmful to the mission.
That argument sounds good until you ask yourself why would these people want to attack us in the first place? Is it because they hate us for our freedom? Is it because they have some kind of profit motive? How bout because they're religious lunatics? If we would shut up for just a moment and listen to what the people attacking us are saying we might learn something. Almost across the board they feel that the U.S. government is an occupying force and they want us to get the fuck out of their country. With 730 some military bases around the world that claim is more truth than fiction. If some foreign military had bases within the U.S. with active personel that went out regularly shooting the shit out of civilians and blowing up private property you'd be declaring a little jihad yourself. The sad part is that you and I are being forced to pay for this slaughter, if we decided not to, this same organization would throw us in a cage. Really nice people you're defending there. The only money they have comes from theft and the only way they can accomplish anything is by force.
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#39 2010-08-04 19:19:04
Hey Dirckman don't strain yourself, that was a lot of words.
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#40 2010-08-04 19:36:09
Dirckman wrote:
If we would shut up for just a moment and listen to what the people attacking us are saying we might learn something.
This is as true for foreign relations as it is for the insane hobo assaulting somebody in an alley.
Hey, did you ever consider that we're not the only ones capable of blind, unreasoning aggression? If we can up and fuck somebody up, maybe there are other people who can up and fuck us up? Huh?
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#41 2010-08-04 22:28:23
Dmtdust wrote:
There is a difference between a German Soldier and a Nazi, thanks.
There is a vast difference between an Afgani and a Talibani, thanks.
Dirck - problem is perception is everything; no matter how much you are winning by if you walk away from a fight while the other guy's still fighting you are a coward.
On the international stage the price for cowardice is paid in blood.
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#42 2010-08-04 22:59:21
I got an email at work today reminding us that just because those 90,000 documents are now on the internet available to everyone, they are still considered classified documents and we cannot view them or any news stories that quote the documents directly on our unclassified government computers.
Kinda funny/ironic but, oh well; you work for the gov you follow the rules even if they are "pay no attention to the man behind the curtain" rules.
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#43 2010-08-05 00:30:36
Dirckman wrote:
If we would shut up for just a moment and listen to what the people attacking us are saying we might learn something.
I am a little hard of hearing, but it sounds like "Breath to Wamerica". I wonder what that's all about?
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#44 2010-08-05 21:34:58
taffy wrote:
Dirckman wrote:
If we would shut up for just a moment and listen to what the people attacking us are saying we might learn something.
I am a little hard of hearing, but it sounds like "Breath to Wamerica". I wonder what that's all about?
"America" is an abstract collectivist concept. The world is nothing more than individuals going around doing stuff and there is no tangible "we" or "us". Some individuals call themselves government and they go out doing things like protection rackets, theft and violence to other people. It just so happens that government doesn't exist in the tangible world it's just like all the other ghosts, goblins and gods. Show me government buildings and politicians as your proof of it's existence and I'll show you churches and clergy as the existence of a god. I can however show you an individual and they can be dangerous as hell when they believe in gods or collectives, mysticism isn't good for anyone.
Last edited by Dirckman (2010-08-05 21:35:22)
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#45 2010-08-06 01:01:27
Much like religion and politics, if "they" are wrong, then "you" have to be right.
While Dirckman doesn't address ethnic or geographic considerations, he makes valid and insightful points.
taffy wrote:
I am a little hard of hearing, but it sounds like "Breath to Wamerica". I wonder what that's all about?
Welcome to the plurality.
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#46 2010-08-06 01:11:10
Dirckman wrote:
Show me government buildings and politicians as your proof of it's existence and I'll show you churches and clergy as the existence of a god..
What happens when I show you Somalia?
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#47 2010-08-06 01:23:05
ah297900 wrote:
Dirckman wrote:
Show me government buildings and politicians as your proof of it's existence and I'll show you churches and clergy as the existence of a god..
What happens when I show you Somalia?
http://www.independent.org/newsroom/article.asp?id=1880 And this is what happens in a non-enlightenment society that is rife with warlords, mysticism, outside governments, and ancient religion all trying to gain power. Imagine implementing freedom in the West where the basic concept actually means something and the idea of self-ownership and property rights exist.
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#50 2010-08-06 21:47:56
As I recall, I live in a country where we believe someone is innocent until proven guilty. However, reading Em and some others comments, it is obvious that I have left that country and gone somewhere else. Tried, convicted, and sentenced. Without a trial.
Personally, although I don't condone the leaks, I will wait for the courts to decide before condemning anyone.
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