ah297900 wrote:

...and his house burns down.

Way to show The Man for trying to force you to pay a bunch of taxes.

This story pisses me off.  In a civilized state the fire chief would be thrown in jail.  If the fire district is going to refuse to put out a fire unless their fee is paid, then they shouldn't have a monopoly on fire fighting services.  You either require everyone to pay and have a monopoly or you open competition similar to ambulance service.

Why haven't we had a real revolution yet again?

fnord wrote:

Government has absolutely no business providing fire protection, water, sewer, police, education, libraries, paramedics, public health services, roads, or any of the other services it has its dirty hands in.  These things need to handled by the private sector for those who have the desire and means to pay for them.  The fire department is to be commended for acting like a business and not mocking its paying customers by giving its services to somebody who had made the decision they weren't worth what the market was asking.

Um, that is exactly how it was done before the early 20th century. The problem, of course, is so many companies either overlapped or simply wouldn't serve areas where there was no chance to make money. San Francisco burned down repeatedly, partially because it was constructed of wood, yes, but partially too because its fire protection services were handled by individual private companies which wouldn't take care of areas that weren't profitable for them. Transportation was handled by private companies which meant that areas were areas that weren't covered because it wasn't profitable. The 1906 quake changed all that for SF which saw how important it was to handle these matters as a single, cohesive entity.

Libraries? Are you kidding? Private libraries were the norm for centuries, of course, but they were only available to people who could afford the subscription costs. Interest had nothing to do with it. Until I was around 6 or 7, my family was extremely poor. We could not have afforded such a thing although I grew up in a house where reading was highly prized. I had my first library card when I first began learning to read and the library was an integral part of my growing up. To this day, my own home is overloaded with books and having access to public libraries was an important factor.

The idiot who wouldn't pay coverage fees brought it on himself. I've been a volunteer firefighter in a rural area and the issue of fees is always an emotional one. And, Phreddy, ambulances don't compete for individual calls. They're assigned specific areas according to formulas determined (rightly or wrongly) by overseeing governmental agencies, and while they may compete to increase their coverage areas, they don't race to be the first to an emergency scene. Part of my firefighting days was also spent as an EMT for a rural ambulance company.

Sounds to me like the guy in the story was an idiot. It's tragic - it's horrifying - but those fees and taxes are what we pay for the common good. I pay taxes that go to cover a lot of shit I don't believe in but they also cover things I do believe in. For the stuff I don't support, I vote, I write and contact my reps on a regular basis, and I try to stay informed to influence those policies to something that are closer to m own values. I volunteer for things I believe in.

I'm sure Somalia must have some sort of system in place for dealing with these matters: perhaps the hero of our story might consider relocating to a country that shares his values. Hopefully, he at least had fire insurance - that's a nice private enterprise system that, as we see continually, works in everyone's best interest.

ah297900 wrote:

Because having several overlapping fire departments would be more efficient than just the one?

Do you have only one pizza parlor in your neighborhood? Sure would be more efficient if only one place had to deliver to each address. All that overlapping: very wasteful of resources....

GooberMcNutly wrote:

ah297900 wrote:

Because having several overlapping fire departments would be more efficient than just the one?

Do you have only one pizza parlor in your neighborhood? Sure would be more efficient if only one place had to deliver to each address. All that overlapping: very wasteful of resources....

Are you really comparing fire protection services to pizza delivery?

He doesn't have a fire department and refuses to pay the neighboring town's fire department to take care of his house if he needs it.   I'm not at all surprised they refused to risk their lives and use their equipment until the field next door, where someone was willing to pay, caught fire.  I am kind of surprised they refused to spray water on the burning house once they were there.  I bet they get a lot more $75 checks.

phreddy wrote:

I think he's comparing politburo planning to capitalism.

Taint's right, though--we tried the private approach in the nineteenth century. Its success can be judged by the fact that we've not had private firefighting for a hundred years.

And comparing local firefighters to politburo planning is something you wouldn't have heard even during the height of the cold war.

I'm interested in knowing where the County Fire Dept was....

opsec wrote:

fnord wrote:

Government has absolutely no business providing fire protection, water, sewer, police, education, libraries, paramedics, public health services, roads, or any of the other services it has its dirty hands in.  These things need to handled by the private sector for those who have the desire and means to pay for them.  The fire department is to be commended for acting like a business and not mocking its paying customers by giving its services to somebody who had made the decision they weren't worth what the market was asking.

That's hard core fnord.  My wizened libertarian soul would like to agree with you, but the problem is that if the general public are denied access to the services you mention, it can badly impact the rest of society.  Clean water, proper sewage disposal and (a minimum of) public health services keep plagues away.  A public police force (is supposed to) ensure safety and access to justice.  Public roads (and most importantly right-of-ways) ensure the right to travel.  Libraries are critical to an informed and educated public.  And while I have a big problem with publicly funded education, it's simply because the system is so inefficient and corrupt. 

Taint, a reasoned response.  Sorry but I'm with fnord on fire services and paramedics.

I assumed it would be obvious my comment was dripping with sarcasm.  We see how well it works out in the Turd World where things operate pretty much as I described.  I have quibbles with how some things are funded and the quality of some of the end products, but I'm not an ideological purest of some sort who thinks it's OK to have people dropping their sprogs and turds out in the open because they aren't members of the favored classes.

Last edited by fnord (2010-10-06 01:29:51)

opsec wrote:

fnord wrote:

I assumed it would be obvious my comment was dripping with sarcasm.

To be fair, you don't always telegraph your meaning.  Hell, we thought you were just a racist, then we find out you're a gay racist.  Is a libertarian gay racist that much of a stretch?

It's not because of compassion that I don't want niggers shitting out in the open.  I just don't want nigger diseases leaping from nigger shit onto me or someone I care about.

choad wrote:

opsec wrote:

Hell, we thought you were just a racist, then we find out you're a gay racist.  Is a libertarian gay racist that much of a stretch?

I'll see that and raise you a black, jewish, fudge and rat packing republicunt.

https://cruelery.com/sidepic/sammydavisjr.jpg

You forgot to throw in handicapped.  He had a glass eye.

Auto-edited on 2020-08-02 to update URLs

fnord wrote:

It's not because of compassion that I don't want niggers shitting out in the open.  I just don't want nigger diseases leaping from nigger shit onto me or someone I care about.

Fnord, it's probable that you are what you represent, but there's a distinct possibility that you're trolling the shit out of everyone. Damn that would be epic.

Think hard about all of the government services that you pay for with your federal, state, local, sales and property taxes.

Now throw away all of those that don't provide for everyone equally.

Then throw away all of those that are so mired in bureaucratic inefficiency as to be irrelevant.

Dumpster any that are just paid arms of a single political party.

Toss those that might have been relevant at one time but now only exist due to legislative momentum. (An object at rest tends to stay at rest...)

Junk any could be provided for less money by a private company.

Get rid of any that overtly infringe on your liberty.

What are you left with?

(In descending order)
The Library: They do great things with a small amount of money and usually without political overtones.
The roads: Available to all and worth more than their costs.
Common Defense: Emphasis on Defense.
Clean Water: Usually a monopoly, but responsible for a high standard of health. 
The Courts: When used to address public safety and adjudicate contractual disputes. Eliminate the concept of tort and professional lawyers though.

I guess I would have to describe myself as a "social contract libertarian". We have always naturally formed governments for the good of all, it's only after they are allowed to calcify that the demagogues move in and form sinecures, carving out their own piece of the public pie. The best defense against such behavior is to get the best service or product for the price and the best way to do that is capitalism with a strong profit motive.

On the original story, it would be interested to see what percentage of the fire service's budget comes from the $75 fee and what comes from public taxes. If it's all from the $75 fee, would there be any impediment to starting a competing fire company?

In rural communities is very common for the voters to form a fire district.  They approve, via the ballot, an annual assesment to be collected with their property taxes.  If you don't pay the assesment the district liens your property, but they still put out the fire if your home is burning.  Normally the adjacent fire districts cover for one another and settle up the costs after the fires are out.

Speaking of 19th century style government controls:

a flood of toxic red sludge from an alumina plant engulfed several towns and burned people through their clothes

Last edited by Tall Paul (2010-10-05 21:19:35)

fnord wrote:

Tall Paul wrote:

Speaking of 19th century style government controls:

a flood of toxic red sludge from an alumina plant engulfed several towns and burned people through their clothes

These little episodes are a small price to pay for economic development.  Requiring more secure walls or actually dealing with hazardous byproducts would impose an unnecessary and intolerable economic burden on business.

What are you smoking nowadays, Fnord?

fnord wrote:

These little episodes are a small price to pay for economic development...dealing with hazardous byproducts would impose an unnecessary and intolerable economic burden on business.

Yeah, think about what you're asking of these businesses.  I mean what if it was you who had to deal with the cleanup--when cleanup is even possible--and the terrible expense--

--Oh.

Some of us have been here all along, Dirck. I notice that this guy has received well over $6000 in farm subsidies in the past 5 years but baulked at $75 to help pay for the cost of fire service for his own home. I have no idea if he's a libertarian or not, but surely the tragedy his family has provided fodder for both sides of the loony political spectrum to fling at each other.

If I had a political wish, it would be for the governor of Colorado to appoint me to serve out a senator's term of office. I and my staff would work hard servicing the requests of the people and my state and studying pending legislation while all the other senators were out whoring for campaign contributions. For fun I would punch out lobbyists, then grin as the Capital police drag them and their money-stuffed envelopes away to jail; and make loud angry rants on the Senate floor about the low caliber of legislation these days. I would sponsor bills that have absolutely nothing to do with either lining my friend's pockets or embarrassing the other side during the next election. I could squat in a boat in the Potomac basin, I'm sure the Kennedy family has a few that they've lost track of. At the end of my term, I'd get the hell out of there and retire with my two years of salary and my appearance fees from The Daily Show.

But that's all a pipe dream, trying to shame American legislators by example. A very few are already good examples, and the rest have no shame.