#2 2011-08-29 08:44:59
Points:
1) Don't hate on the private prison business. It costs taxpayers less and the corporations typically don't make huge profits. They have profit margins that are typically lower than grocery stores. A $3m salary for a CEO is less than the Papa Johns guy makes.
2) And 3 companies sell almost all of the groceries in America. So what? People want simplification in their life, even in their entertainment and reporting. You would have to be an idiot to think that there is less truth in media today than there was before the internet. They sell advertising, not Truth, Justice and the American Way.
3, 4, 5) Anything within the last 50 years?
Offline
#3 2011-08-29 11:03:20
GooberMcNutly wrote:
Points:
1) Don't hate on the private prison business. It costs taxpayers less and the corporations typically don't make huge profits.
That's absurd on it's very face, the fact that there is a profit margin shows we are getting ripped off. Mismangement in the public system should itself be addressed and not used as a means to enrich a few select private entities.
Beyond that you still have to deal with the inheritent conflict of interest and the morality factor.
Any good conservative is made physically ill by the very concept of Prison for Profit.
Last edited by Emmeran (2011-08-29 11:03:44)
Offline
#4 2011-08-29 13:03:26
Considering the incarceration rate in this country, it's no surprise about #1.
McPrisoners.
Offline
#5 2011-08-29 13:30:23
"1) Don't hate on the private prison business. It costs taxpayers less and the corporations typically don't make huge profits. They have profit margins that are typically lower than grocery stores. A $3m salary for a CEO is less than the Papa Johns guy makes."
1. Bull Fucking Shit. Are a SHILL for corporations all the time, or just when you are here?
Offline
#6 2011-08-29 14:00:14
DMT, why do you hate the idea that someone can make a better product, for less money, and be happy about making money doing so?
Private and Charter schools cost less per student than public schools and still manage to better educate the children. Private hospitals usually provide superior service to the patient at a lower total cost of treatment than a public hospital, and they can pay their doctors more, so they get the cream of the crop. I used to have a private company pick up my trash for $20 a month. Then the county provided mandatory trash pick up and added $43 a month to my water bill.
In 2009 in California it costs $47,102 per prisoner per year. That's higher than even the highest per capita income in the whole state, and just about twice the statewide average.
If a private company can design a prison that stores more prisoners per guard, in the same conditions, with less operating costs, at a much lower cost per night than the state it's self, isn't it a violation of the legislators fiduciary duty not to employ them? Or is it more important to keep the union payroll count high enough to provide a solid voting block for your union boss / pet legislator? What do I get for my extra money?
Me, I would rather see the prisons empty out the 40-60% of the prisoners who are in for victimless crimes and see those cost savings first. But why am I paying extra, and what am I getting for it?
Offline
#7 2011-08-29 14:44:35
Emmeran wrote:
That's absurd on it's very face, the fact that there is a profit margin shows we are getting ripped off. Mismangement in the public system should itself be addressed and not used as a means to enrich a few select private entities.
This statement shows a profound ignorance of economics. I didn't realize that anyone, apart from brain dead Communists, didn't know that corporations can do the same job as government for considerably less and still make a profit.
Last edited by phreddy (2011-08-29 14:45:15)
Offline
#8 2011-08-29 19:22:21
phreddy wrote:
Emmeran wrote:
That's absurd on it's very face, the fact that there is a profit margin shows we are getting ripped off. Mismangement in the public system should itself be addressed and not used as a means to enrich a few select private entities.
This statement shows a profound ignorance of economics. I didn't realize that anyone, apart from brain dead Communists, didn't know that corporations can do the same job as government for considerably less and still make a profit.
Yes, they can imprison human beings, lobby for (and actually write legislation to make) harsh sentencing and to make more crimes punishable by imprisonment, set prisoners to work on farms and in factories, make a profit and still morally bankrupt a nation. Legislators pushing judicial incarceration off to profit making corporations are guilty of a morally indefensible dereliction of duty. If they ever make being an asshole a crime I hope they put us in the same cell, even for 5 minutes.
Offline
#10 2011-08-30 03:09:42
" If they ever make being an asshole a crime I hope they put us in the same cell, even for 5 minutes."
This should be a T-shirt!
Offline
#11 2011-08-30 08:32:08
Tall Paul wrote:
Yes, they can imprison human beings, lobby for (and actually write legislation to make) harsh sentencing and to make more crimes punishable by imprisonment, set prisoners to work on farms and in factories, make a profit and still morally bankrupt a nation.
Every single item in that list except for "make a profit" is also done by the government run prison system. Of course they "imprison human beings", it's a prison. Duh. And everyone is trying to make sentencing harsher in order to build more prisons, politicians included. It provides "local jobs" (really political favors in return for votes and a stead supply of government union workers) and shows how badass they are on crime, increasing the law-n-order vote, and for dessert it disenfranchises the troublesome elements, so you don't have to worry about them voting against you. And public prison have work programs, just like private prisons.
Ill still stand that if a private prison can have a lower public cost and still make a profit, your legislators are doing you a disservice if they don't use them.
And what the fuck is "morally bankrupt"? Dictionary.com calls it "the state of being devoid of morality and ethics, used esp. for business and political entities" which makes no distinction between business and government. I would say it's morally bankrupt to spend my tax dollars just to feather your political nest. What's really morally bankrupt is making victimless non-voilent crimes a jailable felony. But that's a topic for another thread.
Offline
#12 2011-08-30 12:33:12
Tall Paul wrote:
If they ever make being an asshole a crime I hope they put us in the same cell, even for 5 minutes.
Sorry Paul, I have no interest whatsoever in your asshole. I suggest you find someone else to share your cell.
Offline
#13 2011-08-30 17:10:35
fnord wrote:
#2 - #5 are widely known. #1 is largely assumed by most people.
At least outside the USA.
Offline
#14 2011-08-30 17:18:06
GooberMcNutly wrote:
Private and Charter schools cost less per student than public schools and still manage to better educate the children.
At least the ones who can afford to go. Nothing like leaving a bunch of uneducated bumpkins for slave labour eh?
GooberMcNutly wrote:
Private hospitals usually provide superior service to the patient at a lower total cost of treatment than a public hospital, and they can pay their doctors more, so they get the cream of the crop.
Agreed. But the people who can't afford to pay a hospital, well, fuck 'em. yeah.
GooberMcNutly wrote:
I used to have a private company pick up my trash for $20 a month. Then the county provided mandatory trash pick up and added $43 a month to my water bill.
Strangely enough, I'm not going to ridicule that one. It's absolutely true, and frankly if people had to pay directly for hauling away their own garbage, it would probably go far to reducing garbage. However, it would also go far to people dumping off bags of garbage in places that are not well supervised in order to avoid paying anything.
Canada has bag-tag plans and sees drive-by dumping all the time in those locations.
GooberMcNutly wrote:
If a private company can design a prison that stores more prisoners per guard, in the same conditions, with less operating costs, at a much lower cost per night than the state it's self, isn't it a violation of the legislators fiduciary duty not to employ them? Or is it more important to keep the union payroll count high enough to provide a solid voting block for your union boss / pet legislator? What do I get for my extra money?
As long as you have controls on corporations lobbying for more/longer jail sentences, I tend to agree. Is there not a budding scandal happening right now where a US politico has been caught working to push up the number and length of jail sentences while being in the pay or being lobbied by a prison company?
GooberMcNutly wrote:
Me, I would rather see the prisons empty out the 40-60% of the prisoners who are in for victimless crimes and see those cost savings first. But why am I paying extra, and what am I getting for it?
No argument there. Decriminalize marijuana and pardon all the people who are or have been convicted of possession for small amounts. You won't see prison companies lobbying for that shit though.
Offline
#15 2011-08-30 21:56:41
I don't know why I keep coming back to this thread, but I guess I just love a good conversation.
Yes, I agree that private prison systems shouldn't be lobbying for harsher sentences. Instead they should be docked pay for every criminal that returns to prison, as they failed in their primary job of rehabilitating them.
(Snork! I almost held it together there...)
Nah, they would game the system by just killing them off, so they don't commit new crimes.
I guess all public prisons would be havens of healing and peace, run on a shoestring budget and full of happy, healthy inmates, working hard to better themselves for their ultimate release back into society. And they will all be run by Joe Arapio, because he is such a selfless public servant, always putting the welfare of his charges first.
Offline
#16 2011-08-30 22:41:58
I find the idea of corporations making profits on prisoners repugnant. They don't do it better, it has been proven time and again. Like giving defense over to contractors, it doesn't work, and it should grate against your better moral judgement, but then I forget that I am talking to a person who values profits over community from what I see in your post.
Last edited by Dmtdust (2011-08-30 22:43:23)
Offline
#17 2011-08-31 00:17:02
Dmtdust wrote:
I find the idea of corporations making profits on prisoners repugnant.
You would think that that would "go with-out saying"; But, I still find my-self shocked at the number of other-wise semi-reason-able people who tend to support the concept. Strange days in-deed (Most peculiar, Momma).
Offline
#18 2011-08-31 09:30:48
So I guess the solution is to piss an infinite amount of money down the hole as long as we "value community" for people who valued it so little they would break it's laws.
That's pretty much the social progressives mantra: "If you can't be bothered to give a shit, just pay us and we will give a shit for you".
Offline
#19 2011-08-31 15:06:38
GooberMcNutly wrote:
So I guess the solution is to piss an infinite amount of money down the hole as long as we "value community" for people who valued it so little they would break it's laws.
That's pretty much the social progressives mantra: "If you can't be bothered to give a shit, just pay us and we will give a shit for you".
Give me a fucking break. It is a problem for the state, not for some corporation to make a profit on.
Offline
#20 2011-08-31 15:08:07
GooberMcNutly wrote:
So I guess the solution is to piss an infinite amount of money down the hole as long as we "value community" for people who valued it so little they would break it's laws.
That's pretty much the social progressives mantra: "If you can't be bothered to give a shit, just pay us and we will give a shit for you".
Give me a fucking break. It is a problem for the state, not for some corporation to make a profit on. Business doesn't do it better, no matter how many times you chant the magikal chant of "Business does it Better".
Offline
#21 2011-08-31 18:38:08
GooberMcNutly wrote:
So I guess the solution is to piss an infinite amount of money down the hole as long as we "value community" for people who valued it so little they would break it's laws.
That's pretty much the social progressives mantra: "If you can't be bothered to give a shit, just pay us and we will give a shit for you".
That's only if you value money above things like freedom and liberty. Depriving someone of liberty is the duty of the State. Once your time is up you go free, hopefully chastened. Or put it this way: What do you call someone who rounds other people up, forces them to live in confinement and makes them work for no wages? Add the strong motivation to keep them confined indefinitely and no accountability beyond making a profit and you have a very ugly situation. Or is it that you admire the Soviet gulag system so much you'd like to see it in America?
Offline
#22 2011-08-31 19:05:42
Tall Paul wrote:
Or is it that you admire the Soviet gulag system so much you'd like to see it in America?
Perfect example of a government run prison system. Thanks for that Paul.
Offline
#23 2011-08-31 19:16:59
phreddy wrote:
Tall Paul wrote:
Or is it that you admire the Soviet gulag system so much you'd like to see it in America?
Perfect example of a government run prison system. Thanks for that Paul.
And you live in what country?
Offline
#24 2011-08-31 20:01:41
phreddy wrote:
Tall Paul wrote:
Or is it that you admire the Soviet gulag system so much you'd like to see it in America?
Perfect example of a government run prison system. Thanks for that Paul.
Nice try, Phreddy.
Offline
#25 2011-08-31 21:00:41
Maybe you'd like to defend Somalia as a country with a very small government?
Offline
#27 2011-09-01 14:26:23
Tall Paul wrote:
What do you call someone who rounds other people up, forces them to live in confinement and makes them work for no wages?
Uh, the District Attorney?
Offline
#28 2011-09-01 19:01:52
GooberMcNutly wrote:
Tall Paul wrote:
What do you call someone who rounds other people up, forces them to live in confinement and makes them work for no wages?
Uh, the District Attorney?
No no, that's the guy who offers felony plea deals to pot smokers. Didn't you ever take a Civics class in school?
Offline
