Dmtdust wrote:

Oh, he was confined for over 2 years without a trial in solitary.  Fuck you Em.

All in accordance with the Uniform Code of Military Justice; and what the fuck did he expect?  He signed those contracts, he knew the price and his whiny little attention-whore self went and broke his oath.  He chose this.

When you take that oath dude it's for real, it's not playtime anymore; this wasn't a specific leak to expose actual wrong doing only a silly self-aggrandizing info dump - he didn't care if anyone got hurt from his actions.  Perhaps no one did, if so we've been lucky but the truth is that we'll never know.


Sad thing is he's gotten exactly what he wanted - attention on a grand scale...
   ...I'd feel sorry for the poor bastard if he wasn't such an embarrassing slime ball.

Yes Em, that argument holds up so well... you know, like it did in Nuremberg.  We mustn't have a glimmer of humanity appearing in the militaries fuck-tardness operations, right?

Heaven help us if soldiers start thinking with their humanity, what would become of the economy?

Cutting through the bullshit...  The young man has taken an oath and is subject to the UCMJ.
I think this is the reality of the situation.

The kid is guilty as shit and in any other century would have been summarily court martialled and shot. He's also a hero to millions, if not billions of people around the world - myself included. Good luck to him, I'd help him if I could, and I hope he inspires others to such selfless acts of bravery.

Nope, Shartleby is a Canook.  Or at least posting from a Canookian IP address.

As for Manning, look past the anti-hero facade and you will find a shit heel who decided he didn't like the Army after all because people were mean to him, so he decided to do something stupid to get out.  It happens quite frequently, just not usually involving someone with as much 'access' as him.  He also fucked up big time by doing it in a time when there is shooting going on.  'They' frown upon that.....

Bigcat wrote:

Shartleby The Scrivener wrote:

The kid is guilty as shit and in any other century would have been summarily court martialled and shot. He's also a hero to millions, if not billions of people around the world - myself included. Good luck to him, I'd help him if I could, and I hope he inspires others to such selfless acts of bravery.

Is this you, Achpoon? I can't keep track anymore.

I wouldn't think Achpoon would have spelled court martialed incorrectly.

New Person?  Learn to fucking spell.

I don't think it's Ahpoopsie, BigCat - there's neither self-congratulation on the perspicacity of his post, nor a long boring discussion of Goya's war paintings. As for "court martialled" - it's an acceptable British spelling - he's probably a brit, or a mick, or a canuck. Either way, he's disagreeing with St. Emmeram, which means he ought to be burnt.

Last edited by WilberCuntLicker (2012-11-27 19:12:14)

feisty wrote:

Personally, I'm torn about Manning/Assange.

...

On the other hand, Assange is a self-righteous attention whore, and Manning is a fucking idiot.  He broke the law, and he broke it in one of the most boneheaded ways possible.  Most of the information he passed on did more harm than good, both for his fellow soldiers/marines/sailors/flyboys and for our foreign policy.  I think he should be punished, but I still think we're going about it in a very dickish way.

So yeah...I'm fucking torn on this issue.

I agree with you on Assange, Wikileaks is a good thing however he is not.

The other thing people need to understand is that Manning didn't receive special harassing treatment, that's just how it's done in the brig.  You don't want to spend time in the brig, you want to get your ass to Leavenworth as fast as possible if you've committed a crime.  The brig is not a prison, it's a punishment institution - my brother spent some time there (before he took to living in penitentiaries), its not a place you want to be.

Dmtdust wrote:

phreddy wrote:

Dmtdust wrote:

Heaven help us if soldiers start thinking with their humanity, what would become of the economy?

I know you mean well Dusty, but soldiers are not supposed to think humane thoughts.  Battle plans depend upon everyone doing his job.  If soldiers are allowed to make independent moral judgments on the tactics assigned to them, it would cause chaos on the battlefield.  The last thing a soldier needs is for the guy protecting his flank to decide this particular battle is inhumane and not worthy of the fight.

The same goes for big picture strategic decisions.  Individuals in the military rarely get to see the big picture.  They sign on and pledge to follow the orders and plans of their commanders.  It is up to the civilian overseers in congress, not the individual soldier, to make sure the military is not committing inhumane acts.

There are provisions for refusing to follow an illegal order, but this doesn't apply to this kid.

Bull.

War is organized murder?  Precisely!  What did you think it was, a big game of gentlemen cricket with rules to protect the players?  Failure to carry out your assignment in the murder plot fucks up the organization part.

Auto-edited on 2020-08-02 to update URLs

XregnaR wrote:

I always find it amusing when humans moralize about killing other humans.

Moralizing is almost always amusing to the intelligent observer, fine-tuned to the nuances of hypocrisy. Empathy is also fraught with complications, but I find it a generally superior wayfinding tool.

phreddy wrote:

War is organized murder?  Precisely!  What did you think it was, a big game of gentlemen cricket with rules to protect the players?  Failure to carry out your assignment in the murder plot fucks up the organization part.

War is what you do to prevent being killed or enslaved.  Our tribe is at war with the "Al Queada" tribe ostensibly because they killed a large amount of our tribe and keep trying to kill more of our tribe and we want to make them stop.

(I still have no idea why we went to war with the Iraqi tribe but we did a damned good job of making them stop doing whatever it was we didn't like)

Emmeran wrote:

Dmtdust wrote:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/nov/28/wikileaks-suspect-bradley-manning-jail

"Bradley Manning: marine commander warned detention was inappropriate
WikiLeaks suspect held at Quantico for nine months despite recommendation of 90 days maximum, pre-trial hearing told"

I hate it when we're inappropriate.

You qualify in the pathetic range of the human expression.

Dmtdust wrote:

Emmeran wrote:

Dmtdust wrote:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/nov/28/wikileaks-suspect-bradley-manning-jail

"Bradley Manning: marine commander warned detention was inappropriate
WikiLeaks suspect held at Quantico for nine months despite recommendation of 90 days maximum, pre-trial hearing told"

I hate it when we're inappropriate.

You qualify in the pathetic range of the human expression.

Inappropriate is a far cry from illegal.

Let me help you understand:

Appropriate:  Keeping Manning segregated from the other detainees for his own safety.
Inappropriate:  Putting Manning in a Marine Corps brig instead of an Army prison.
Legal:  Detaining or imprisoning a service member under the UCMJ.
Illegal:  Intentionally disseminating classified information.


Also your quote is wildly out of context:

he informed his superior officer in the Pentagon that in his opinion Quantico was not the right place for the soldier should his detention last long.   

After about seven hours of questioning, Choike told the judge presiding over the court martial, Colonel Denise Lind, that he had been concerned from the beginning that the brig at Quantico was unprepared for the long-term detention of such a high-profile case as Manning. He said he was worried about dealing with the media, about co-ordination of command and about medical handling of the detainee.

Dmtdust wrote:

"Article 13 of the Uniform Code of Military Justice prohibits punishment before trial of any individual, on the same assumption as that in civilian law that a person is innocent until proven guilty. Should the judge be convinced by the defence argument that Manning was subjected to unlawful pre-trial punishment at Quantico, she has the power to reduce his sentence should he be found guilty, or even throw out all the charges."

This contradicts your vindictive take.

Now, this is a different argument and I agree with you on it.  I found it difficult to understand how they could keep him isolated and in shackles when he has not been convicted of a crime.  However, after he is convicted, I would support hanging him from his ankles by those shackles, but not before.

Edit:   I am probably the only one on this board who has actually been incarcerated in a Marine brig (albeit for a very short stint).  I can tell you that even living in the general population is miserable punishment. The answer to your question is smoking dope.

Last edited by phreddy (2012-11-28 18:27:28)

Just keep on that line of reasoning and you'll never come out your personal morass.

Seems like there are real experts who don't agree with your local blowhards. Usually when people refuse to recognize a hero it's because they feel personally threatened by his willingness to invert the power structure. You know - "God save the status quo!"

edit: fixed link

Last edited by choad (2012-11-29 16:01:51)

Shartleby The Scrivener wrote:

Seems like there are real experts who don't agree with your local blowhards

Expert?  No, liberal apologist is the correct term for Ms. Cohn.

Shartleby The Scrivener wrote:

phreddy wrote:

Shartleby The Scrivener wrote:

Seems like there are real experts who don't agree with your local blowhards

Expert?  No, liberal apologist is the correct term for Ms. Cohn.

Bias does not negate expertise. "Lawyer" is the correct term for Ms. Cohn. I would suggest several correct terms for you, but I'm Canadian, and bound to be polite.

Great work, Fartlebee - reinforce the stereotype. Isn't there a Toastmaster's forum you can peddle your bullshit on? In short - fuck off. I've got the Canadian side of things covered around here.

Manning pleads guilty and complains about conditions.

Segregation was obviously necessary but Quantico was a bad choice; can't wait to hear the full story on the underwear thing. 

Interestingly enough he has a history of self-harm:

His father's second wife was also called Susan, and Manning apparently reacted badly when the second wife's son by a previous relationship changed his surname to Manning. When he found out about it, he started taking running jumps at the walls, and told his mother: "I'm nobody now."

Dmtdust wrote:

Attempting to. a.  lower. charge.  Not the same.  Read.

And Dusty takes the bait...

The problem is they've pretty much got him on all charges; LWOP is his future, yes I know that you think he did as accused and you applaud his acts.

Shartleby The Scrivener wrote:

I'd have to see your IP address to believe that we reside in the same country. I don't know many Canadians who would stoop to ad hominem attacks, which seem to be your primary rhetorical device. Maybe you would benefit from Toastmasters (no possessive apostrophe, thank you) yourself.

Wilbur arrived starry-eyed and filled with wonder at the opportunity to immerse himself in the finer points of la culture américaine. He was so fresh, so innocent; who were we to deprive him?

Shartleby The Scrivener wrote:

Taint wrote:

Shartleby The Scrivener wrote:

I'd have to see your IP address to believe that we reside in the same country. I don't know many Canadians who would stoop to ad hominem attacks, which seem to be your primary rhetorical device. Maybe you would benefit from Toastmasters (no possessive apostrophe, thank you) yourself.

Wilbur arrived starry-eyed and filled with wonder at the opportunity to immerse himself in the finer points of la culture américaine. He was so fresh, so innocent; who were we to deprive him?

You are far too kind. I am pretty sure I would have strangled the bugger. He reminds me of one my boys - god help me if I don't want to take off the belt on a regular basis and reticulate his bewalkus. (But I don't - at 6'5" it doesn't quite seem fair - I'll exercise some restraint and wait till he's 15.) Well, it's 4:20, but not the good kind of 4:20, and my work day begins in a double-fistful of minutes. Guess I'd better wash & gird my loins, rub some sanitizer on the arm-pubes and head on down to the pie shop. I only get a little time to myself in the AM and a bit more before I pick the kids up from their grandma's in the afternoon, so I'm on the run, as always.

Ta Ta

His actions, and exposure of the massive military clusterfuck.

Dmtdust wrote:

His actions, and exposure of the massive military clusterfuck.  Your constant implying that anyone who differ's from your opinion is gay is getting old, but I like it, it reveals a substrate of your consciousness for all to admire.

Of course the military is a complete cluster-fuck right now, our so-called leaders asked them to make crème brulee using only an e-tool and a bucket of watery shit.  So what have our boys given us? Well the only thing they could:  Shit Brulee

Has our military fucked up?  Yes, but not as badly as they could have. Everything that has gone wrong to this point leads right back to the start of this shit show and the politicians who pulled us into this sewer ditch.  Our boys have been set up to fail and now eleven years later they are doing so; Bradley Manning isn't the answer - you and I are.  Manning is just a sad little man who's a victim of this bullshit as much as the Afgani child who's face was shot off.  I pity Manning but that doesn't erase his crimes, he knew better.

You are far better than this Dusty, just come to grips with the fact that this guy isn't who you thought he was or who you wanted him to be.  We respect your approach to the subject at hand but your fixation with turning this loser into a hero is getting old.

Emmeran wrote:

Dmtdust wrote:

His actions, and exposure of the massive military clusterfuck.  Your constant implying that anyone who differ's from your opinion is gay is getting old, but I like it, it reveals a substrate of your consciousness for all to admire.

Of course the military is a complete cluster-fuck right now, our so-called leaders asked them to make crème brulee using only an e-tool and a bucket of watery shit.  So what have our boys given us? Well the only thing they could:  Shit Brulee

Has our military fucked up?  Yes, but not as badly as they could have. Everything that has gone wrong to this point leads right back to the start of this shit show and the politicians who pulled us into this sewer ditch.  Our boys have been set up to fail and now eleven years later they are doing so; Bradley Manning isn't the answer - you and I are.  Manning is just a sad little man who's a victim of this bullshit as much as the Afgani child who's face was shot off.  I pity Manning but that doesn't erase his crimes, he knew better.

You are far better than this Dusty, just come to grips with the fact that this guy isn't who you thought he was or who you wanted him to be.  We respect your approach to the subject at hand but your fixation with turning this loser into a hero is getting old.

Well hell, Em, that's why we have judges at trials. So they can make judgements about things like extenuating circumstances and such. Guilty of violating the UCMJ he may be, but that's not the whole story.

Sssssssh!