#1 2013-11-12 19:44:04

http://youtu.be/QPKKQnijnsM

Last edited by Dmtdust (2013-11-12 19:55:19)

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#2 2013-11-12 20:48:19

Ahhh - deregulation, you gotta love it!

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#3 2013-11-12 22:20:27

Lies, damn lies, and statistics.

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#4 2013-11-13 13:26:28

Dusty,
Nobody argues that wealth is equitably distributed in this country, because it just isn't.  However, we have vast differences of opinion on the means for making it more equitable.  If you simply take money from the rich and give it to the poor, you end up with disaffected people on both ends of the spectrum.  First, the rich are being taxed simply because they are rich, so they see government as the enemy and seek ways to keep and protect their wealth.  Second, the poor are resentful of handouts while at the same time so addicted to them that they become complacent and nonproductive. 

Conservatives like me would rather see a rising tide that floats all ships.  Stop the punitive taxing and scapegoating of rich people and they will stop hoarding their wealth.  Instead of devising strategies for avoiding confiscation of their money, they will put it to work in economic development.  This provides others with livable wages and the opportunity to develop their own wealth.

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#5 2013-11-13 14:06:00

Clearly we need more Horatio Alger. 

http://www.thebadchemicals.com/comics/2009-04-03-bootstraps.jpg

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#6 2013-11-13 15:04:16

I am feeling all 1792.

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#7 2013-11-13 17:33:25

phreddy wrote:

Dusty,
Nobody argues that wealth is equitably distributed in this country, because it just isn't.  However, we have vast differences of opinion on the means for making it more equitable.  If you simply take money from the rich and give it to the poor, you end up with disaffected people on both ends of the spectrum.  First, the rich are being taxed simply because they are rich, so they see government as the enemy and seek ways to keep and protect their wealth.  Second, the poor are resentful of handouts while at the same time so addicted to them that they become complacent and nonproductive. 

Conservatives like me would rather see a rising tide that floats all ships.  Stop the punitive taxing and scapegoating of rich people and they will stop hoarding their wealth.  Instead of devising strategies for avoiding confiscation of their money, they will put it to work in economic development.  This provides others with livable wages and the opportunity to develop their own wealth.

And again:

Phreddy wrote:

Stop the punitive taxing and scapegoating of rich people and they will stop hoarding their wealth.

I really love that quote, it made me laugh first thing this morning. But enough of your wonderful one-liners.... can you offer any examples from history that support that statement? I can muster a whole regiment of examples of the polar opposite. The greatest broad expansion of American wealth happened in the 1950's, and what was the top tax rate then? Whether it was designed that way or not, over the past 35 years or so public policy turned America's economy from manufacturing and farming to one based on consumerism, and right now is striving to pauperize the domestic base of consumers.

People like me would also rather see a rising tide that floats all ships. What would you say to a legal mandate that gives the majority of corporate profits to employees? No CEO actually (Well, many actually do. Maybe I should say 'legitimately') earns 680 times what a factory worker does.

Phred, what we have here is a system wherein the rich steal from the poor simply because they are poor and can't defend themselves. It was made for the rich, by the rich using classic American hand-tooled politicians. Privately owned legislatures make great Christmas gifts, but the just don't offer much benefit to the common man.

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#8 2013-11-13 22:14:19

phreddy wrote:

Dusty,
Nobody argues that wealth is equitably distributed in this country, because it just isn't.  However, we have vast differences of opinion on the means for making it more equitable.  If you simply take money from the rich and give it to the poor, you end up with disaffected people on both ends of the spectrum.  First, the rich are being taxed simply because they are rich, so they see government as the enemy and seek ways to keep and protect their wealth.  Second, the poor are resentful of handouts while at the same time so addicted to them that they become complacent and nonproductive. 

Conservatives like me would rather see a rising tide that floats all ships.  Stop the punitive taxing and scapegoating of rich people and they will stop hoarding their wealth.  Instead of devising strategies for avoiding confiscation of their money, they will put it to work in economic development.  This provides others with livable wages and the opportunity to develop their own wealth.

Conservative ideals are what drove industry to third world countries instead of here in America. Even corporations which pay little or no taxes have moved operations offshore to save dollars. It is not about what is right , it is only about greed.

The rich will not, of their own choosing, pay a living wage to anyone they can get for less. The money from the rich will not flow down to the lower and middle class as you believe it will. The rich are all about hoarding their wealth and not sharing with those who most need it. Of course there are exceptions, but the vast majority are not exceptions, they are the rule. There is no answer which will satisfy the rich AND the poor in this country. Your idea that people become complacent when their food money has been cut to less than $100 per month is laughable. We have raped the education system in this country to the point that we no longer rank in the top twenty in the world. We have used those dollars to benefit corporations and to kill our enemies instead of educating our children so they CAN have a better future.

I make a decent wage, and I am all for each of us paying our fair share. Those who make millions should pay far more than those who make far less. When all people can live in some sort of comfort range, then you won't have to live in fear as you do and your need to defend all guns as necessary for your defense will end. For this to work, everything must change in balance. What we have seen for decades now is imbalance, and it shows in nearly everything we do as a people today.

We tried the trickle down idea. I failed miserably. It is time to try something else, don't you think? Of course it is a utopian ideal. But compared to what we have today, nearly anything but the status quo would be an improvement of monumental proportion.

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#9 2013-11-13 22:43:00

The rich are politically connected and will use politics to snag, shelter and retain as much money they didn't earn as they can.  The poor are desperate and they too use politics to snag as much money they didn't earn as they can.  The middle class don't have much for political connections, are usually too busy working and don't qualify for any government handouts and end up getting fucked in the ass by both the rich and the poor and especially the politicians.  The root problem to all of this wealth disparity is politics and the solution is to drag every politician and anyone with political ambitions out for a public execution.  Without politics and politicians the rich and the poor would both have to quit feeding off the government's tit and get jobs like the rest of us to survive.  I guarantee you that the sight of rotting politicians strung up in public places across the world would create an environment of greater social and fiscal equality.

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#10 2013-11-14 09:43:57

doesyourpussyhurt wrote:

Conservative ideals are what drove industry to third world countries instead of here in America. Even corporations which pay little or no taxes have moved operations offshore to save dollars. It is not about what is right , it is only about greed.

Those are NOT conservative ideals.  They at most could be called neo-conservative, but I think profiteering scumwaffle with no values at all would be more appropriate.  A truly conservative run company would do everything to keep it "Made In the USA" as that is what their base wants.

The rich will not, of their own choosing, pay a living wage to anyone they can get for less.

Um, MOST who employ others pay as little as they can.  If you define "rich" as anyone who can and does employ others, I guess you could be right here.  Costs of employment get passed to the end consumer, so unless YOU are willing to pay more for the goods and services you consume, then YOU (and I) are at the heart of the supply/demand cycle.

There is no answer which will satisfy the rich AND the poor in this country.

This is the crux of the "problem" right here.  Only in times of general prosperity do you hear little complaining about the gap between wealth and poverty.  We also have a skewed view of the definition of "poverty".  Yes, there are those who are destitute and in dire need of food and basic shelter.  But the vast majority of "poor" in the USA have running water, electricity, basic food, and frequently cell phones, internet and cable TV.

We have raped the education system in this country to the point that we no longer rank in the top twenty in the world.

This is huge.  Had a conversation with a recent HS graduate the other day.  He was an honor student who graduated a year early.  He still had no idea how to balance a checkbook or plan a budget, and had absolutely no understanding of how credit works.  Until we ALL understand the basics of fiscal responsibility this nation will continue to degrade into the mass of mindless consumers/wage slaves that is the biggest threat to civilization that I can imagine.

I make a decent wage, and I am all for each of us paying our fair share.

This is one of the common sticking points I have.  Who gets to define "fair share"?  Don't bother answering, because anything you come up with will pretty much exemplify fascism.

...your need to defend all guns as necessary for your defense will end.

Nope.  History has already proven you wrong for thousands of years.  Until there is some evolutionary change, humans will ALWAYS have a need to defend themselves from other humans.

We tried the trickle down idea. It failed miserably. It is time to try something else, don't you think? Of course it is a utopian ideal. But compared to what we have today, nearly anything but the status quo would be an improvement of monumental proportion.

I think even Reagan would be disgusted with the current situation....

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#11 2013-11-14 09:49:37

XregnaR wrote:

I think even Reagan would be disgusted with the current situation....

The Neo-Cons are obsessed with out-Reaganing Reagan.

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#13 2013-11-14 11:32:58

This is an excellent article Choad.  Unfortunately, most will not read the whole thing.  The author's bottom line is that a cozy relationship between government, the Fed, and big bankers caused the 2008 crash, and, thanks to quantitative easing by the Fed, the big investment banks are benefiting mightily from it.  Meanwhile, our dollars become more diluted with each monthly printing of fake money.  But, let's be clear.  Manufacturing, mining, and other primary industries create wealth, not speculative bank practices.  The speculators simply live off the toil of these industries.

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#14 2013-11-14 11:49:37

As an interesting side note one could point out that the crash of 2008 served as a minnowing of the financial industry down to only a few major international conglomerates.  It seems that "three" is the magic number for national competition these days.

Of course then one must ask when will come the "calamity" which narrows us internationally?

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#15 2013-11-14 11:57:25

phreddy wrote:

Manufacturing, mining, and other primary industries create wealth, not speculative bank practices.  The speculators simply live off the toil of these industries.

Sure, after they've deducted the expense of buying our courts, executive and legislatures to give manufacturing, mining and other primary industries carte blanche to fuck us and their own workforce sideways. It's the shamelessness of it all, everyone's for sale. Venal cunts have even stopped issuing indefensible excuses anymore. "I got mine, the rest of y'all can go to hell." And we let them do it. Everyone's complicit, everyone's to blame.

Last edited by choad (2013-11-14 12:10:21)

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#16 2013-11-14 12:39:32

Choad wrote:

Sure, after they've deducted the expense of buying our courts, executive and legislatures to give manufacturing, mining and other primary industries carte blanche to fuck us and their own workforce sideways.

I disagree that industry is fucking their workforces.  Increases in wages and benefits are negotiated from a position of strength.  Because the economy is shitty and we have the lowest Labor-Force Participation Rate in 35 years, you can't expect industry to increase wages.  My daughter just applied for a part-time clerical job.  There were 130 applicants.  Not until the government's boot is lifted from the neck of our economy will you see any real growth in wages.

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#17 2013-11-14 12:54:14

After 30 years of deregulation and we hear the same old trope.

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#18 2013-11-14 14:53:02

phreddy wrote:

Not until the government's boot is lifted from the neck of our economy will you see any real growth in wages.

{sarcasm}It is definitely over-regulation and the government boot - it couldn't have anything to do with off-shoring to countries where the buildings fall down on top of the workers.{/sarcasm}

Last edited by Emmeran (2013-11-14 14:53:22)

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#19 2013-11-14 16:28:39

Emmeran wrote:

phreddy wrote:

Not until the government's boot is lifted from the neck of our economy will you see any real growth in wages.

{sarcasm}It is definitely over-regulation and the government boot - it couldn't have anything to do with off-shoring to countries where the buildings fall down on top of the workers.{/sarcasm}

It has everything to do with off-shoring, which is what businesses do when their own country makes it too difficult to do business at home.

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#20 2013-11-14 16:56:45

phreddy wrote:

Emmeran wrote:

phreddy wrote:

Not until the government's boot is lifted from the neck of our economy will you see any real growth in wages.

{sarcasm}It is definitely over-regulation and the government boot - it couldn't have anything to do with off-shoring to countries where the buildings fall down on top of the workers.{/sarcasm}

It has everything to do with off-shoring, which is what businesses do when their own country makes it too difficult to do business at home.

I'm sorry worker safety and clean water/air seem to have ruined the business environment.  So much for leaving things better than you found them, fuck it all - trash the place and the people then take your money and run.

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#22 2013-11-14 19:28:39

You should have seen what they took out of my golden parachute (tin parachute actually), the actual amount was terrifying.  Between State and Fed they took more than 70% of my money.

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#23 2013-11-14 22:40:00

Emmeran wrote:

I'm sorry worker safety and clean water/air seem to have ruined the business environment.  So much for leaving things better than you found them, fuck it all - trash the place and the people then take your money and run.

If only that was what most of the taxes were spent on instead of buying votes and campaign contributions wholesale. The feds only "spend" about 24% of non-military expenditures. That pays for the courts, the bureaucracy, congress, all the GSA workforce, etc. The other 76% goes right back out in checks to welfare, the states welfare, foreign government, incentive programs, etc.

I don't begrudge the 24%, it's the other 76% kickbacks that make me mad.

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#24 2013-11-14 23:01:22

GooberMcNutly wrote:

The other 76% goes right back out in checks to welfare, the states welfare, foreign government, incentive programs, etc.

I don't begrudge the 24%, it's the other 76% kickbacks that make me mad.

Those numbers smell suspect but never mind. We offshored our production and idled a corresponding huge share of our workforce. How are they supposed to eat?

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#25 2013-11-14 23:08:47

I make a decent wage, and I am all for each of us paying our fair share.

This is one of the common sticking points I have.  Who gets to define "fair share"?  Don't bother answering, because anything you come up with will pretty much exemplify fascism.

I don't even necessarily think we need to raise any taxes whatsoever. I think a restructuring of our government expenses would do the trick. Streamlining the myriad of agencies which all basically handle the same duties would be one way. Also reducing the ridiculous defense budget would be another. Redirecting the money to help this country, not the big businesses who profit off of our fears. Ending the support for the stupid numbers of countries we financially help out each year. In the end, there is plenty which could be done which would affect everyone as far as quality of life is concerned. But as far as I can see, until a majority of Americans, far more than 51%, get behind any new ideas, nothing will change.

Edited to say.....sorry, lost the quotes thing.

Last edited by doesyourpussyhurt (2013-11-14 23:09:20)

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#27 2013-11-17 06:59:23

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#28 2013-11-30 11:25:12

http://media.moddb.com/images/groups/1/3/2923/George_Carlin.jpg

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#30 2014-02-15 10:59:50

choad wrote:

http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2014/02/the-rise-and-rise-and-rise-of-the-001-percent-in-america/283793/

I've been pounding that drum for years.  Hell I'm in the top income tax bracket but that isn't much of an accomplishment, it's all in the Capital Gains.  Naturally CapGains are taxed at basically poverty level income rates.

The argument is always the same:  If you tax CapGains at a higher rate nobody will invest.  Obviously this is a bullshit spin, what are they going to do with that $500mm - stick it under their mattress?  The truth is if you tax CapGains at the same rate as income tax they will still invest, they'll just bitch about the extra 20% haircut on their profits.  Only a fool would believe that an investor would pass on the rest of the profit on their investments because of that haircut.  That money has to be put to work somewhere and the markets are the most liquid and transparent of all investments available.

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#31 2014-02-15 16:40:57

You people are not appreciative enough!

"I don't think people have any idea what the 1 percent is actually contributing to America," he said at one point.

While acknowledging that wages have remained stagnant for decades despite huge increases in productivity, Perkins offered no solutions for what ails the middle class other than kneecapping teachers' unions and rekindling the spirit of 1980s Britain. "You need and we need another Margaret Thatcher," he told the press. "I've met Margaret Thatcher, actually. Charming lady. Look, free-market capitalism, it's what has created most of the wealth in the world, and it's the only way to proceed. Free. Market. Capitalism.

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#32 2014-02-27 15:56:58

Emmeran wrote:

I'm in the top income tax bracket

So when is the SSG USMC R&R Resort for High-Street Vets opening?

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#33 2014-02-27 18:48:08

MSG Tripps wrote:

Emmeran wrote:

I'm in the top income tax bracket

So when is the SSG USMC R&R Resort for High-Street Vets opening?

Shit, when did they ever pay us an adequate price for our blood?

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#34 2014-04-16 12:26:48

https://cruelery.com/sidepic/oligopoly.png


~ click ~

Auto-edited on 2020-08-02 to update URLs

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#36 2014-05-09 13:42:22

Isn't that wonderful. But unfortunately, as with all Leftist policies, you eventually run out of other people's money. So, in our quest to make everyone equal, let's make everyone equally poor.  Take a lesson all you adherents to Obamanomics.

the left-leaning Indian Congress Party, in power since 2004, implemented substantial wealth-redistribution policies.  These policies are now weighing heavily on the national budget.

Economic growth has slowed to below 5 percent, and inflation — around 8 percent to 8.5 percent annually — has eroded wages.

The key cause of inflation is India’s large budget deficits, which have recently been running at 4 percent to 5 percent of GDP. Though one year’s shortfall almost reached 8 percent. The expensive populist programs help keep deficits high.

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#37 2014-05-09 13:53:48

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#38 2014-05-09 13:57:54

phreddy wrote:

Isn't that wonderful. But unfortunately, as with all Leftist policies, you eventually run out of other people's money. So, in our quest to make everyone equal, let's make everyone equally poor.  Take a lesson all you adherents to Obamanomics.

Exactly - which is why the Rural Telephone Tax (Universal Services Fund) crushed our economy for almost a century.

I'll believe India has income equality when their sanitation rates begin to approach those of your normal third world nation.

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#40 2014-11-10 08:54:15

choad wrote:

http://www.economist.com/blogs/graphicdetail/2014/11/daily-chart-2

All that shows is that no matter how hard you legislate wealth "leveling", it just gets worse. From WWII through the beginning of the Welfare state, then hit the late 70s or early 80's and see how boom in WIC, subsidized housing, education grants, increased minimum wage and all of the other silver bullets designed to kill poverty have just made it worse.

Talk all you want about "too big to fail" or "too rich to jail" but there is also a persistent problem with "too poor to work" where the simple fact of being poor is enough to qualify you for enough programs to live on. You might never be "rich", but it certainly leaves you enough time to hang out with your friends all day and maybe do a little "side work". I grew up in a community like that and still meet people I grew up around that are proud that they have children who are third generation welfare wards, where literally nobody in their three generations of family has EVER had what you would call a long-term job, something lasting more than a year.

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#41 2014-11-10 12:17:17

Workfare, not Welfare.  Take a clue from Germany.

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