I'm with you, Choad.  I have many Jewish friends, and on a one-on-one basis they're pretty good folks - nice families with solid traditions.  But I have some trouble with two of the basic tenants of their culture - their 'never forget' attitude and their focus on limited assimilation into their community. 

Re 'never forget': Cripes, how can you ever move on with life and in relationships if you 'never forget' every slight that ever was inflicted upon you?  The very concept is doomed to failure.  I think in large measure Mr. Gandhi was correct... in following a 'never forget' policy, over time you begin to lose the sympathy for the acknowledged horrors and end up just pissing people off.

Re limited assimilation:  The Jewish folks have what I might best describe as a "club" community - meaning you're either a member of their 'club' or you're not, and if you're a member you're entitled to special privileges, special inside deals, and enhanced attention and service.   This leads to religious nepotism in a host of fields where they now dominate - movies, TV, science, etc. - and it's simply discrimination at its most insidious. 

Don't get me wrong - I am not anti-Jew - I appreciate their love of God and their strong religious faith.  But these two practices really rub me the wrong way.

MSG Tripps wrote:

In the United States, never allow Jews the perception you are insulting them; it might cost you.

Stupid Hebrew fucks.

Regurgitating the same news item from multiple sources does not necessarily enhance its credence, y'kno. I sometimes wonder why I bother defending other Jews. It's certainly not a knee-jerk thing, anymore...and I realize that other Jews on the planet--or the religion, itself--are not to be judged by the actions of one extremely, unfortunately situated country. Just like any "Christian nation" we might know (or live in). What a surprise, then, that there are no other Jewish states to judge by.

Regardless of your position on the "Nation of Israel," to confuse this with the agenda or identity of "all Jewish people" is beneath your intellect. Unless that's what you intended, in which case, you should have the balls to say so.

choad wrote:

How long do Israelis expect to supress reality when when the horror their arrogance and aggression has bought them is so plain for everyone to see?

Too bad their nearest rival for the world's loathing is US.

Ah, Israel, the perpetually loathed. For centuries--if not millennia--before you ever existed, Jews have been hated. I defy you to watch 30 minutes of your average Holocaust footage and not say "Jeezooschrist, that's terrible. Here's take this small plot of land and leave me alone." Sadly, there are no similar images of every pogrom, from every country in Europe, from the periods before we had photography. Britain was tired of their false sovereignty there, by most accounts, so they condescended to create a new Jewish 'homeland,' displacing a lot of people who probably didn't deserve it. Who would deserve such a thing, I often wonder. A nuanced geopolitical, religious, and internecine war is being fought and the only unfavorable party you can think of is the Jews? 2-3% of any country's population is not to be confused with a similar percentage of the wealthy. We weren't even allowed to become doctors and lawyers in THIS country until about mid-century.

choad wrote:

The cloistered Jewish provincials you've observed are largely confined to the coasts, where everyone else pays retail.

There is nothing more offensive than self-congratulatory tolerance. I can far more easily stomach Fnord's overt posing than to hear anyone else imply that they have no problem with a particular ethnic group when it's so obvious that they do. And I'm not saying that because I was born a Jew, I 'own' this, somehow. I'm not observant, I do not affiliate, but figure that most discontent and perceptions of inequity directed at Jews are born of a deep-seated and unquestioned sense of difference or superiority, one that would land on any other group that merely appeared to have what others had not.

I could go on for pages, but what's the point? If the obvious distinction between a Jewish State and all Judaism is lost, then there's little I could explain in any attempt to persuade. It's when these two concepts get mashed together that the speaker usually shows how little he cares to understand. It's so much easier to judge one nigger by the riot or killing you saw on teevee in a country you never visited. None of it really affects your life, and you can still say shit that condemns an entire people.

whosasailorthen wrote:

Re limited assimilation:  The Jewish folks have what I might best describe as a "club" community - meaning you're either a member of their 'club' or you're not, and if you're a member you're entitled to special privileges, special inside deals, and enhanced attention and service.   This leads to religious nepotism in a host of fields where they now dominate - movies, TV, science, etc. - and it's simply discrimination at its most insidious. 

Don't get me wrong - I am not anti-Jew - I appreciate their love of God and their strong religious faith.  But these two practices really rub me the wrong way.

Funny, an ex came from a secular Jewish family on long island that was completely assimilated in the very midst of a regional  jewish cultural enclave.

Club communities are problematic but endemic in this country and elsewhere. Exclusionary attidudes of supremecy are not just the provence of jewish immigrants and their decendents. My Main Line Episcopalian forefathers being local captains of industry and by god there was no way they were going to have those Catholics in their WASP club, the clubrooms at their hallowed Merion Golf Club or maybe most importanly, their executive boardrooms.

When the Southern Baptists decided to move a headquarters and college to Valley Forge these newcomers were particlarly shunned. My 60s era father the reverend had the audacity to make friends with some of their proffesors which did not make him popular within our diocese. Our regional Mid Atlantic community and economy was domminated by WASP elitist entitlement for at least 100 years until my generation. 

I have at times tried to cop the WASP voice in some of my posts just to be annoying in the cruel.com spirit. Not that I decieve myself that I am any less actually annoying in person. I managed to rub midwesterner headkicker girl enough of the wrong way that she scathingly called me out on my WASPy supremency bullshit.

Last edited by Johnny Rotten (2008-01-29 19:55:04)

choad wrote:

Setting yourself apart by dragging ancient horrors into the present only guarantees a repeat performance of the same nasty history. Ever wonder why child predators were early victims of the same abuse?

How 'apart' must I be, to become non-Jewish enough--as no one else would allow--and by how many years? Do I have to be shoved into an oven or left on a skeletal heap to prove something, and should it have faded from collective memory by now? Must I experience hanging, burning at the stake, or simply being divested of all that I've attained, merely for clinging to an earlier relationship to our same god? When do you describe how being Jewish and being Israeli are different? I'm jewish like other people are black or female. We can look or act like whatever we want, but it'll always be someone else who tells us what we are and what we're capable of being...and how much they resent whatever we've accomplished.

"Pass through" Tel Aviv as much as you want. Try living there. I have no particular connection to Jews in that place...or in Wisconsin, for that matter. In the latter, they don't have to worry so much about what their government does that might get their asses blown up while they're sipping coffee. I've seen the horrible inequity between major Israeli cities and Arab ghettos. It makes me sad. I don't agree with it, in principle. But, in emotion, which generally requires no explanation, I see something that's more like a pretty Masada (a futile bastion) than a self-satisfied affront to all the people they know they displaced. They have guilt, they have fear. They wish they could let it go...nearly as much as they wish they weren't being chased out of every Old World country on the planet.

There's a nearly genetic imperative to 'take a stand' somewhere. It's the putative logic behind zionism; the feeling that anyone judged so cheaply must know. I wouldn't 'return to Israel' if you held a gun to my head...and mostly because I know, once I'd gotten there, the same gun would be to my head anyway. Eventually, you get tired of hearing all the groundless, reactionary bullshit, and you have to circle your wagons someplace. I always thought 'Israel' should be somewhere in southern Jersey, but they preferred to reassert themselves where the Christian Bible said they ought to be.

Are you a non-Christian? Are you anything? Do you believe in something, culturally or spiritually, or would you figure--as I do--that belief is quite irrelevant when you can let history be its own judge?


Dhalgren: Aside from what I've continued to discuss with Choad as person I still respect: May your mother get ass-raped by a leper with a broken bottle for a cock.

I pay you no mind, nor should anyone else. Nice dodge on the fact that you think you produced different information in those links. You are a fossil of an idea that no longer exists. Thank goodness you have the fuckin' spine to claim possession of your own half-hearted, anti-semitic garbage, which still makes you so much less than a racist, it makes you a fool. And if you didn't fear how much everyone else already knew you were a fool, then you wouldn't try this hard to explain otherwise. You add nothing to this world more than spite, and you take everything you can as entertainment. You are cheap coward who subsists online and all that you have learned is wasted because it serves no one but yourself. I don't believe a word you say, and neither should anyone with eyes.

Fortunately, you exist nowhere else, so I must see something useful in being annoyed with you, which implies that I care about what is seen on HS. I have no idea what that is, anymore. If you're willing to out yourself as someone who hates Jews just because they're Jews--which denies all human thought and makes them non-persons--then you have destroyed this site. People have carried you for years because they want to be momentarily close to irrational hate and fear...but they don't want to live there.

pALEPHx wrote:

Ah, Israel, the perpetually loathed. For centuries--if not millennia--before you ever existed, Jews have been hated.

I don't know about all that.  Most of Israel's history the whole region was made up of tribal societies vying for land an resources, warring over land and enslaving each other, and Israel was prime land, but while I'm aware that the Old Testament of my parents' Bible is not exactly the same as the Jewish texts, the history shows that not only were their neighbors not always hating and ganging up on them, they very frequently intermixed geneologically and culturally. 

I'm not taking away from the fact that there is and has been plenty of anti-Jewish sentiment, but sometimes I have to wonder about the mythos of the "most hated nation status".  I don't mean "I have to wonder" as in "I've really made up my mind that you're full of shit" but seriously.  I have known relatively few Jews in a setting where it would come up a lot, but probably more than I'm aware of (there aren't enough in my neck of the woods to be centered in a particular area, etc.)  How much worse are they treated now than any other ethnic group that gathers together and pools resources for the betterment of the group?  Most of the complaints I've heard about Jews (it's amazing the things people will say right in front of you when you look like your average White person) could just as easily have applied to Mexicans, or Hondurans, or the Polish, or Koreans, or any group large enough to have their own grocery store.  People who would complain because another group has a solid community and thrives because of it are idiots, and will probably always be around. 

Knowing that I don't know much about it I try to keep my mind open, but I haven't seen anything so out of the ordinary yet in my current lifetime.  Maybe I'm just naive, but I don't really see any evidence that Jewish people are being driven out of the rest of the world, although I see plenty of evidence that there is discrimination.  I do live in an very ethnically eclectic area of California, though, and maybe that colors my perceptions a bit.

The Anti-White Propaganda spewed out daily by the Jewish media couldn’t possibly have anything to do with loathing of Jews now could it?  The genocide against Palestinians which the “dual citizen” traitors in our government steer our country into supporting couldn’t be a factor.  The hypocrisy of attacking or threatening governments Israel accuses of trying to obtain nuclear weapons while ignoring Israel’s nuclear bombs and known attempts to develop biological warfare agents shouldn’t cause people to loathe Israel and its numerous overseas agents and ethnic sympathizers.  Only bigots would be upset about Jonathan Pollard and Thor knows how many other spies that our “friend” Israel has used against America.  I’m sure the destruction of the USS Liberty by Israel was just a little misunderstanding.  And telling the Armenians to shut up about their holocaust, that it wasn’t important, well, someone had to tell them.  The killing of sixty million Russian gentiles by the overwhelmingly Jewish Soviet Communist Party was just a coincidence about which groups the killed and the killers happened to belong to.  These and a number of other misunderstandings are behind the growing dislike of Jews by people all over the world.  Not shutting up about events that happened over sixty years ago and using it as an excuse to extort billions of dollars is just icing on the cake.


A few quotes from the Talmud:

Abodah Zara 26b: "Even the best of the Gentiles should be killed."

Sanhedrin 57a . A Jew need not pay a Gentile ("Cuthean") the wages owed him for work.

Yebamoth 98a. All Gentile children are animals.

Abodah Zarah 36b . Gentile girls are in a state of niddah (filth) from birth.

Sanhedrin 59a: "Murdering Goyim is like killing a wild animal."

Last edited by fnord (2008-01-30 05:05:33)

tojo2000 wrote:

http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/1221 … kerzz1.jpg

It took about 30 seconds to find out that your quotes are bullshit.

Prove it!  While the average Jew may not be familiar with the specific anti-gentile statements contained within the Talmud, the leaders of the community are.  These people see to it that Jewish culture is imbued with contempt for non-Jews.

I seriously doubt he can do that, but David Dukes website will have his quotes.

Some Teachings of the Jewish Talmud ,

Moed Kattan 17a: If a Jew is tempted to do evil he should go to a city where he is not known and do the evil there.

Penalty for Disobeying Rabbis

Erubin 21b. Whosoever disobeys the rabbis deserves death and will be punished by being boiled in hot excrement in hell.

Hitting a Jew is the same as hitting God

Sanhedrin 58b. If a heathen (gentile) hits a Jew, the gentile must be killed.

O.K. to Cheat Non-Jews

Sanhedrin 57a . A Jew need not pay a gentile the wages owed him for work.

Jews Have Superior Legal Status

Baba Kamma 37b. If an ox of an Israelite gores an ox of a Canaanite there is no liability; but if an ox of a Canaanite gores an ox of an Israelite...the payment is to be in full.

Jews May Steal from Non-Jews

Baba Mezia 24a . If a Jew finds an object lost by a gentile ("heathen") it does not have to be returned.

Jews May Rob and Kill Non-Jews

Sanhedrin 57a . When a Jew murders a gentile, there will be no death penalty. What a Jew steals from a gentile he may keep.

Baba Kamma 37b. The gentiles are outside the protection of the law and God has "exposed their money to Israel."

Jews May Lie to Non-Jews

Baba Kamma 113a. Jews may use lies ("subterfuges") to circumvent a Gentile.

WAIT...THERE'S MORE -

Non-Jewish Children are Sub-Human

Yebamoth 98a. All gentile children are animals.

Abodah Zarah 36b. Gentile girls are in a state of niddah (filth) from birth.

Abodah Zarah 22a-22b . Gentiles prefer sex with cows.

Yebamoth 63a. Declares that agriculture is the lowest of occupations.

Yebamoth 59b. A woman who had intercourse with a beast is eligible to marry a Jewish priest. A woman who has sex with a demon is also eligible to marry a Jewish priest.

Hagigah 27a. States that no rabbi can ever go to hell.

Baba Mezia 59b. A rabbi debates God and defeats Him. God admits the rabbi won the debate.

Gittin 70a. On coming from a privy (outdoor toilet) a man should not have sexual intercourse till he has waited long enough to walk half a mile, because the demon of the privy is with him for that time; if he does, his children will be epileptic.

Menahoth 43b-44a. A Jewish man is obligated to say the following prayer every day: "Thank you God for not making me a gentile, a woman or a slave."

What Jewish Scholars Are Saying:

Rabbi Meir Kahane, told CBS News that his teaching that Arabs are "dogs" is derived "from the Talmud." (CBS 60 Minutes, "Kahane").

University of Jerusalem Prof. Ehud Sprinzak described Kahane and Goldstein's philosophy: "They believe it's God's will that they commit violence against goyim," a Hebrew term for non-Jews. (NY Daily News, Feb. 26, 1994, p. 5).

Rabbi Yitzhak Ginsburg declared, "We have to recognize that Jewish blood and the blood of a goy are not the same thing." (NY Times, June 6, 1989, p.5).

Rabbi Yaacov Perrin said, "One million Arabs are not worth a Jewish fingernail." (NY Daily News, Feb. 28, 1994, p.6).

You guys reminds me of Shecky Green's overweight kid at summer camp every time he whined about the Jewish persecution. Only way to get him to shut about it was to shout back, "Gas 'im! Gas 'im!"

whosasailorthen wrote:

Re 'never forget': Cripes, how can you ever move on with life and in relationships if you 'never forget' every slight that ever was inflicted upon you?  The very concept is doomed to failure.  I think in large measure Mr. Gandhi was correct... in following a 'never forget' policy, over time you begin to lose the sympathy for the acknowledged horrors and end up just pissing people off.

I hate to say this, but this goes very much for a large population of blacks in America as well.  Hey Blacks:  Slavery is the past.  I wasn't a slave owner.  My parent's were immigrants from Europe.  They never owned slaves.  Their parents and grandparents didn't either.  Don't hate.  Assimilate.   That is what is hurting a large percentage of the blacks these days.  The fact that they are always acting like they are owed something for a past that a good portion of them these days were not even part of.  This generation (blacks my age) were not slaves!  Their parents likely were not either. 

Let it go, and let us all just get along.  I don't hate based on color.  But I do hate people that feel entitled for age old slights, like the jews and holocaust, and blacks and slavery.  Yes, it sucked.  I don't expect it to be without merit.  I do expect people to work towards moving past it, forgiving, and building a better future for everyone.

Kumba-ya-my-lord, Kumba-ya.

Roger_That wrote:

jews and holocaust, and blacks and slavery

Hey Roger_That.  Stuff like this overloads my bullshit meter.

Roger_That wrote:

go do some bong hits

The VA, in it's infinite wisdom, has added Clonazepam to my already impressive arsenal of meds.  New toy; "proper" usage has not been established, yet.

MSG Tripps wrote:

Roger_That wrote:

go do some bong hits

The VA, in it's infinite wisdom, has added Clonazepam to my already impressive arsenal of meds.  New toy; "proper" usage has not been established, yet.

Clonazepam is awesome.  It's as good an anxiety killer as pot can be to an extent.  One of the better "chill pills".  In fact, I have a handy stash. 

Watch out, withdrawl is a bitch.