Emmeran wrote:

Directed arguments to the fellas in the pub doesn't result in you being right or wrong my friend, they only result in that the fellas don't come to the pub when you are around.

Make a statement, try to make it fun and move on.  We aren't going to solve anything here but we do enjoy a beer and a laugh at the world.

Yeah, I think you are mostly right. No one is likely to change anyone's mind engaging in this kind of thing.

As I indicated early on in this discussion (in a different thread) I fucking hate this issue. It is thankless, unsolvable and tends to be highly emotional.

For what it's worth, I generally agree with the perspectives about guns which you have shared recently.

Smudge wrote:

hedgewizard: "The numbers floating around out there have a lot of liars figuring, and your numbers come from them cherry picking."

Great. Please point EXPLICITLY to the incorrect facts, and then provide your (presumably more credible) facts, and more reliable sources, because my cards -- and my data and sources -- are on the table. So far, I'm the ONLY one is this discussion to provide numbers, data, statistics and graphs -- and sources for all of those. And I'll continue to if this discussion continues. But you won't get very far by challenging hard facts, from known and credible sources, against unverified and largely off topic generalities -- which is what you're attempting to do now.

I apologize, I see you don't know where the data in the graph came from.  The we own more guns than anyone else data comes from a 2007 Small Arms Survey and doesn't include guns in the home owned by the government (for example Swiss and Israeli numbers are very low because of this).  It also doesn't take into account the percentage of the country owning guns, but rather the number of guns per 100 people.  The other problem with the graph is it focuses on firearm homicides rather than total homicides. If you use the data that way more firearm ownership leads to fewer total homicides.  I have no interest in debating gun control one way or the other.  I'm simply pointing out that people providing that kind of information often distort it in ways to make their point.  I don't know what would have happened if the numbers in the JAMA article were run differently, I definitely want to know why they made the choice they did before I even start to believe.  I'm not even going to start on how graphs can distort things by setting the axis in strange places etc. 
Since you want graphs, I just used the Google to find an article for you:

https://crimeresearch.org/2014/03/compa … countries/

Watch at least a couple of minutes. John Oliver was 'on' the day he made this one:

Smudge wrote:

More people view the National Rifle Association (NRA) negatively than positively, according to a new poll...

God, I hate polls.

Demilitarize state and local police. Problem solved.

Thought I'd revive Smudge's Topic.  This school shooting was by a female student of a christian school.  They've released her name, which I didn't think they did for minors (she was 15) but she killed herself so maybe that's allowed now.  I'm sure the parents are going through multiple hells at the same time.

Deadly shooting at Abundant Life Christian School is a hard and unforgettable precursor to long-awaited Christmas break

By Ray Sanchez, CNN
Updated: 7:57 AM EST, Thu December 19, 2024
Source: CNN

See Full Web Article

The annual “Ugly Christmas Sweater Day” at Abundant Life Christian School in Wisconsin was to be a festive precursor to the long-anticipated winter break, a respite of nearly two weeks to gather with family and friends, unwrap presents and reflect on the year that passed.

For families of the 335 or so students from kindergarten to 12th grade at the school in Madison, however, it may be hard to think about anything other than the fatal shooting of a classmate and a teacher by a 15-year-old student on Monday. Six other people were injured.

Officials identified those who were killed as Erin Michelle West, 42, a teacher, and Rubi Patricia Vergara, 14, a freshman.

“The kids saw this and heard this, I mean, right before Christmas,” said John Diaz de Leon, a neighbor who watched the arrival of a small army of first responders, including officers with long guns escorting students from the school to the nearby church sanctuary and a chorus of parents desperately asking for their children.

“How tough is that to live? And the parents, the parents were, ‘Where are my kids?’ … If that were my kids, it would be hard. I mean, I can’t think of anything harder,” he told CNN affiliate WMTV.

For students like sophomore Mackynzie Wilson, the terror rocked the otherwise tight-knit school. “I didn’t know if I was going to live or not,” said Wilson, who was shaking as she was led out of the school building, her hands in the air.

It will be a hard and unforgettable holiday season for sure. The private religious school serves some 200 families from more than 50 churches in the Madison area. With smaller class sizes and an atmosphere of respect, the school website said, “there is a familiar face around every corner.”
‘I want them to have happiness’

Nora Gottschalk recounted the shooting after being reunited with her father. While holding a SpongeBob SquarePants popsicle, the 8-year-old student calmly recalled being in a school hallway with other students, preparing for an early lunch, when shots rang out just before 11 a.m. Monday.

Chicken sandwiches and sour cream and chive fries were about to be served in the cafeteria as gunshots exploded in the latest of at least 83 school shootings across the United States this year.

She heard the shots, Nora told CNN affiliate WISC. Then, a teacher screamed out, “Ah, my leg. Help. Help.”

“I was really scared, and I was really sad,” said the second grader, clutching the popsicle in her small hand.

Nora later interrupted her father during the interview. Another moment from the nightmarish episode came to her. A boy named Noah, she said, came out from under the tables where students had taken cover. He rushed over to pull down a dark curtain over a door so the shooter could not see inside.

“He risked his life to put the black curtain down,” Nora said.

Asked about her wishes for her classmates and teachers, Nora said simply: “I want them to have happiness.”
‘Everyone was targeted’

A second-grade teacher called 911 at 10:57 a.m. to report a shooting, police said.

The shooter was in a study hall classroom with students from various grades. She pulled a handgun and opened fire, police said. A state lawmaker said his nephew heard bodies hit the floor. There were nine people in the room and eight of them were hit before the shooter killed herself, Wisconsin State Assembly member Jerry O’Connor told CNN.

The shooter was identified as Natalie Rupnow, who went by the name “Samantha,” according to Madison Police Chief Shon Barnes. She was found dead about 11:05 a.m. when officers entered the school. Evidence suggested she died of a self-inflicted gunshot wound, Barnes told reporters.

For now, Barnes said without elaborating, “it appears that the motive was a combination of factors.” Investigators were talking to students to determine whether bullying was a factor, according to Barnes. They were scouring the shooter’s online presence for clues.

“Everyone was targeted in this incident, and everyone was put in equal danger,” he said.

Wilson was in school that day. She had a locker next to the 15-year-old shooter’s. She described her classmate as a shy girl with glasses. She never would have thought Rupnow capable of carrying out such a violent act.

“You never really know what’s happening in someone’s mind or like what they’re going through,” Wilson told CNN.

Rupnow was a freshman and didn’t appear to have many friends, said Wilson. She was in composition class when the shooting erupted about two doors away. Five loud bangs. Some kids joked about gunshots but she realized this was real. Their teacher instructed them to hit the floor. Lights were shut off. The door was locked and the blinds pulled down.

“All of us girls were just like holding each other and crying because once we realized it was real, it was really scary,” Wilson said.

The principal confirmed their fears, announcing: “Active shooter. This is not a drill.” Then another gunshot.
‘Why did they do that?’

Adler Jean-Charles was in English class with his twin brother when they heard gunfire. Children were crying.

“I was scared,” he said. “Why did they do that?”

Mireille Jean-Charles, his mother, said she was home when she got a call that the school her three sons attend was on lockdown after a shooting.

“We cried and we prayed,” she said of the long wait before seeing her sons again.

“But the trauma, it’s a lot because I’m sure they lost friends and (a) teacher, which is not OK,” she told WISC. “And I don’t think they will be OK for a long time.”

Kellen Lewis’ son told him children huddled in a corner of a classroom. They could hear people running and screaming outside. Their teacher stood guard between the door and the students, taking cover with scissors in hand and “ready to do whatever he had to do to defend the kids in that class,” Lewis said.

Bethany Highman got a call from her mother about the heavy police presence at the school. She attended Abundant Life and her daughter now is a student there. Her nieces and nephews also attend the school.

“I pray with my kids every morning that this won’t happen, and it’s the world that we live in,” Highman told CNN affiliate WMTV Monday afternoon before being reunited with her daughter. “God is good, God is gracious, and my kids are safe. My family is safe.”

Unfortunately others weren’t and Wilson thought about her younger brother, Crew, a seventh grader she later learned was not injured. A friend assured her “everything’s going to be OK” and that God will protect them. Their teacher said a prayer over them.

Nora’s father, Karl Gottschalk, was on his way to work that morning. He kept having to stop for ambulances and police vehicles. He received a text message about an active shooter at the school. At least 10 ambulances passed and he immediately thought “one of my children might be” among the multiple casualties.

“At that moment, I pretty much panicked on the side of the road,” he told WISC hours after being reunited with his children. “We’re all back and we’re going to go home and be safe and hold each other … It’s really sad, and it’s going to take a lot of time and, you know, just a lot of consoling for everybody in the community.”

Gottschalk waited with other parents at a family reunification center.

“I’ve lived here all my life and this is the first I’ve ever heard of an actual shooting,” he said. “No, it’s not going to happen to me. You know, everybody always thinks that. And it’s quite shocking to have it in our small town. It’s such a small Christian school.”

Abundant Life was founded in 1978, with an enrollment of about 30 students. In a message on the school website, the principal, Doug Butler, stressed what he called a vision of academic excellence and “reliance on the Bible as the inspired Word of God and the foundation for all that we teach.”

Now the children of Abundant Life Christian School have a harsh, real-life lesson in a too familiar characteristic of the American educational system. Asked what happened at school on Monday, Nora said simply: “Lockdown!”

© 2024 Cable News Network. A Warner Bros. Discovery Company. All Rights Reserved.

BorderCount wrote:

If prayers don't work for a Christian school, I doubt they're gonna work for anyone else, either.

They only need thoughts when you think about it.