phreddy wrote:

Covered up the Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac debacles.  Here is a 2005 video of a hearing where the Dems on the committee try to kill the messenger, Armondo Falcon of the Office of Federal Housing Oversight, after he told them FNMA and FMAC were failing and that their executives were ripping off the public. 

Edit:  sorry, don't know how this code displays three screens.

Link to YouTube page

Welcome to the wonderful world of politics my friend.

Its not one party is better than the other, it's that they are both a bunch of lying, cheating bastards & bastardettes

If you get to thinking that anyone of them is actually a decent person you have made a big mistake.

Emmeran wrote:

Its not one party is better than the other, it's that they are both a bunch of lying, cheating bastards & bastardettes.

Not saying you don't have a point.  But so far I've only seen videos of Dems rebuffing the claims that Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac were ticking time bombs.  If the Republicans were just as bad on this one surely there is an equal amount of footage demonstrating it.  I'm not saying there isn't any.  I've just not seen it yet.

Thank you for the disconnected, out of context, five second clips of people saying things.

Look, the point to remember is that deregulation has been a central plank of the republican party platform. There's just no way around that. Picture it the other way around: say the Democrats were in charge, and pro-choice policies ended up costing the US government $700,000,000,000. Would you buy it if they started blaming republicans?

And by the way, has anybody ever pointed out that that amount of money would outright buy 2.8 million homes at a quarter million each?

square wrote:

All you do is [youtube}video_id{/youtube] where video_id is the ID string that appears at the end of the URL.

Which is exactly what I did.

Ah wrote:

say the Democrats were in charge, and pro-choice policies ended up costing the US government $700,000,000,000. Would you buy it if they started blaming republicans?

The Dems were in charge.  The executives of FNMA and FMAC were both ex Clinton staffers.  They ran amok and bought off the Dems in key committees so they could continue running amok.  These two quasi governmental companies are the marketplace for the resale of mortgages.  If they can't resell the ugly shit they've purchased, the whole system gets constipated, and the system shuts down, and that's exactly what has happened.  The Republicans knew it and some of them tried to stop it, including John McCain.  It's all there to see, but I suppose it doesn't appear so clear if you're drinking the cool aid.

Last edited by phreddy (2008-10-02 13:57:59)

Here's an article that explains why it was NOT the Dems fault.

I think it has more validity than Phred's extrapolation from a 2-year-old CSPAN clip.

Zookeeper wrote:

Fled wrote:

Do a little homework and you will find that the deregulation charge was generally led by republicans.

I keep hearing that.  But the argument "it's the big bad RP's fault for advocating deregulation" still doesn't explain why we have such pointed examples of Republicans warning that Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac were disasters about to happen while Democrats (sometimes angrily) told them there was no problem.  Did the Democrats in question "just lose themselves " in the whole deregulation dance?  Or was it just a case of "I'm running this, you belong to the opposing party, so no warning from you will ever get through to me regardless of the facts?"

Well, anyone who tells you that doesn't happen is probably lying.

headkicker_girl wrote:

Here's an article that explains why it was NOT the Dems fault.

I think it has more validity than Phred's extrapolation from a 2-year-old CSPAN clip.

Actually, that was an unusually coherent article from the NY Times, which is now generally known as a liberal apologist rag.  However, the fact that some Republicans were asleep at the wheel does not negate the fact that a large group of Republicans, including McCain, have been screaming for more than two years that this financial meltdown was coming if Congress didn't do something.  Obama took upwards of $100,000 from FNMA and FMAC to keep his mouth shut during that period.

You fuckers crack me up. Like anyone is more responsible for this than anyone else. Did McCain make noises about Freddie and Fanny a couple of years ago, sure, but if he knew there was a problem and submitted nothing to solve it, than he's doubly responsible. Did Obama take a shit load of money from Freddie and Fanny, shit yeah he did. Did the Democrats lead in deregulation? Fuck yeah. Did the Republicans take it to its extremes? Shit yeah, motherfucker.

Anyone who tries to use this issue as a wedge against the other candidate or party is an idiot. It's like saying, the other guy breathes oxygen and eats food to live, so you shouldn't vote for them. They're all to blame. You want to make this an issue for politics, ask the motherfuckers what they wanna do now, and make judgments about that.

Was it grandstanding? 

hadda ask...

phreddy wrote:

Headkicker wrote:

Also, show me one artcle from the past (not McCain's recent propaganda) showing that McCain was concerned.  It must be from a reliable source.  Fox and World Net Daily do not count.  If he's such a reformer and maverick, why the fuck didn't he do something about it?

I did better than refer you to an article.  I posted the transcript right here from his speech in the Senate trying to promote a bill to regulate the fucked up financial market.  It was killed in committee.

McCain's concern about Freddie and Fannie's accounting practices doesn't really have much to do with the current financial crisis.  McCain was concerned about Freddie and Fannie only because of the government's relationship with these institutions.  Nowhere did he mention privately traded mortgages on wall street, which are the real root of the current financial collapse.

Auto-edited on 2020-08-02 to update URLs

phreddy wrote:

Orangepus wrote:

Anyone who tries to use this issue as a wedge against the other candidate or party is an idiot. It's like saying, the other guy breathes oxygen and eats food to live, so you shouldn't vote for them. They're all to blame. You want to make this an issue for politics, ask the motherfuckers what they wanna do now, and make judgments about that.

You can blather on about how it's everyone's fault, but most rational people have the crazy notion that past actions predict future performance.

Just like in 4 times out of 5 we already know what you are going to say before you post.

This week has proven everything I have said about the left and the media for the last 10 years. I guess I can be thankful about that.

What a lot of whining and self deceit.  Isn't it remarkable how some people see only what they want to see?  The repetitive crying about the media is grossly overworked and the right should get off it.  The right is hardly under-represented in the media. 

If republicans were "screaming" and leading the charge, and were so determined to get the GSEs out of the mortgage backed securities market, why didn't they even get the much touted bill to a senate committee vote when they controlled both houses of congress?  Ever ask yourself that?  The republican house sponsors of the one piece legislation I have seen cited themselves complained that their was no serious sponsor in the senate and thus the bill died without a vote of any kind.  The republicans were more than complicit in blowing air into the real estate bubble, and many of their biggest contributors were raking in money from it. 

I don't know anyone who is saying that Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac had nothing to do with the problem, not if they are making any effort to be objective.  To try to explain how such a huge sector of the economy tanked by pointing to the GSEs, however, is laughably inadequate.  The GSEs did not issue the mortgages.  An under-regulated lender market did.  The serious mistake the GSEs made is that they bought up a lot of the bad paper the lenders had issued and then rushed to sell into the secondary market, making it even more profitable to generate the subprime and Alt A mortgages.  They should not have been allowed to do so.  But a lot of investors did exactly the same thing, thus the failures in the investment banks and many other private and poorly regulated institutions.  The politicized analysis that you spout does not shed any light on the subject.

Last edited by Fled (2008-10-03 07:43:09)

headkicker_girl wrote:

This is my problem with the right...you are so anxious to demonize the left that you ignore reality.

Oh, this is a problem just with the right?  The left isn't at least as bad?  Thanks for the objectivity.

Zookeeper wrote:

headkicker_girl wrote:

This is my problem with the right...you are so anxious to demonize the left that you ignore reality.

Oh, this is a problem just with the right?  The left isn't at least as bad?  Thanks for the objectivity.

No, the left isn't as bad.  They shoot themselves in the foot trying to be fair and objective.  They were fucking complimenting Palin last night, for fucks sake, instead of railing on the fact that she's a blathering idiot who isn't even qualified to lead her own family, let alone a nation.

Dirckman wrote:

I hate the Democrats and the Republicans equally....  There are actually two schools of thought running here, at times independant of political parties...  There are groups of people who believe in personal responsibility and those who believe in collective responsibility...  I for one believe in personal responsibility because I don't like being held responsible for the actions of others...  I also don't like having to pay for the mistakes of others...  Both political parties need to stay out of my morals and out of my fuckin' checkbook...  I'm kind of touchy about this particular subject today after having had a political argument with one of those big women who like black guys....  She has five children, only two of them have the same dad, lives off of the state, is complete white trash, and took it upon herself to call me "selfish" because I only seem to care about myself...  The worthless fucking cunt seemed to forget that it was her decision to get knocked up repeatedly, seemed to forget that I wasn't the dad, and seemed to forget that I'm already paying for those worthless piles of shit she calls her children...  People like that do nothing for society but drag it down and they should be left to fucking starve...  That right there was my bitch aimed mainly at the liberals among us...  I've spent enough time over the past few months bitching about theocracy that I was afraid ya'll here might consider me a Democrat...  Ciao.....

You won't find many liberals arguing that society should support welfare babies.  What liberals will argue, though, is that if you want a fat bitch to get off of welfare, you need to  give her job training and incentives to do so, and also make the welfare finite, so that she can become a (marginally) productive member of society.  Also, liberals want to assure that her fatherless babies have access to education so that they might possibly grow up and fill some of the shitty jobs that non-immigrants are willing to take (Wal-Mart, etc), rather than committing crimes to make ends meet.  Conservatives would rather do nothing and funnel these bastards into the prison system where they will pay much more to keep them incarcerated than the cost of teaching them automotive technology or cosmetology.  Personal responsibility sounds nice, but society always pays in the end...one way or another.

The Dilemma... Cooperative Responsibility/Action or Personal Responsibility/Action.
Why not apply both?  It in my book which makes a good citizen.

All in it together....

Dirckman wrote:

I'm arguing that every generation has it's share of losers and lost causes.....  The only thing we should do for them collectively is to tell them to fuck off....  You're arguing for some inherent value of these people as individuals, but there is none...

It doesn't matter whether or not one thinks they have VALUE...they have an iinherent social cost, which is something the liberals acknowledge and the conservatives pretend does not exist.

headkicker_girl wrote:

Zookeeper wrote:

headkicker_girl wrote:

This is my problem with the right...you are so anxious to demonize the left that you ignore reality.

Oh, this is a problem just with the right?  The left isn't at least as bad?  Thanks for the objectivity.

No, the left isn't as bad.  They shoot themselves in the foot trying to be fair and objective.  They were fucking complimenting Palin last night, for fucks sake, instead of railing on the fact that she's a blathering idiot who isn't even qualified to lead her own family, let alone a nation.

What unbelievable bullshit.  The outright hatred toward the right expressed on a daily basis here should be enough to open your eyes.  Gee, they were actually nice to Palin last night?  Does that REALLY characterize how she's been treated by the left since she joined the ticket?  Gimme a break.  The left demonizes the right constantly. 

The right regularly paints the left as "naive", "elitist", "self-serving" and just plain wrong all the time.  But that falls short of true "demonization".  The left calls the right "mean", "evil", "angry" and greedy constantly.  They accuse the Republicans of going to war simply to line their pockets.  It's all "blood for oil".  They paint horns on Bush's head both both figuratively and literally.  The only reason the word "evil" isn't used more often when attacking Cheyney is because the Left doesn't like to use the word or acknowledge the concept actually exists (no problem though when profanity serves so well).  He's the Dark Sith Lord of the Republican Party.  Or was that Karl Rove?  I can't remember. 
The venom spewing from the left greatly outweighs what comes from the right.  The right complains and blames the left all the time.  But "demonize"?  Please.  The left wins on that count easily.

To be fair, you have to admit that George Bush has fucked up a lot.

I hate to admit it, but I have to agree with Zookeeper...  What makes it so difficult is that the Bush administration has had some incredible fuckups over the last eight years...  The far right also takes it upon themselves to dictate their brand of morality on the populace...  Every single time Bush brings up something like "National Prayer Day" my blood pressure skyrockets....  The left doesn't ever do anything that quite pisses me off that much, but their fiscal philosophy is so incredibly skewed from reality that I can't accept them as legitimate...  I just can't understand why the Libertarians never get the credit they deserve...  Every time I bring up Libertarian viewpoints in a discussion people laugh them off as if Libertarianism is not a credible option...  I still haven't heard anyone explain to me why a fiscally conservative, socially liberal approach would not work.....  It's nothing more than providing the most freedoms possible to the people...  As for a group of people that bitch, whine and have a victim mentality, you can't do any better than the left...  The left tries to get as many votes as they can by convincing their constituents that they're all victims...  The Democrats have successfully turned themselves into the party of pussies....

orangeplus wrote:

Dirkman, do you believe in global warming? Do you think we need to do something to address it?

I do believe in Global warming...  I also believe that humans are the main cause of global warming....  As for whether or not I give a fuck, I don't...  As a big fan of history, mainly natural history I also understand that the world is constantly changing...  I've done good deal of fossil hunting in my life, mainly in the Cretaceous formations of Wyoming and Montana and I've seen that in a relatively short period of geologic time that the world in that region has gone from sub tropical to semi arid....  The world is constanty changing and always has...  Species have arisen and gone extinct, nothing is permanent....  It's ridiculous to think that mankind doesn't have an effect on the environment, it's also incredibly arrogant to think that humans are the only species that has ever had a major effect on the environment....  The dinosaurs in their 200 million year reign have done far more to permanently change the world environment and world history since then than we've done in our short stint here....  That's the world we live in....

Last edited by Dirckman (2008-10-04 16:00:04)

I'm not cakefarting here, I am making a point. Your point of view is generally nihilist. I respect that, even identify with it. It should however give one pause to give too much legitimacy to a political program you espouse. If, as your response seems to alude, that man is not long for this world thus you don't give a fuck about fixing a possible existential threat, then your politics would be short sighted and indulgent. It would be well aligned with your self interest. There is nothing generally wrong with this, we have a word for people who act against their own self-interest. Fool, which, obviously, you are not. But short sighted and indulgent is a pretty good criticism for libertarianism in general. Those who want to think they will have great-grandchildren, who may also have great-grandchildren of their own, might look a different way.

Zookeeper wrote:

What unbelievable bullshit.  The outright hatred toward the right expressed on a daily basis here should be enough to open your eyes.  Gee, they were actually nice to Palin last night?  Does that REALLY characterize how she's been treated by the left since she joined the ticket?  Gimme a break.  The left demonizes the right constantly. 

The right regularly paints the left as "naive", "elitist", "self-serving" and just plain wrong all the time.  But that falls short of true "demonization".  The left calls the right "mean", "evil", "angry" and greedy constantly.  They accuse the Republicans of going to war simply to line their pockets.  It's all "blood for oil".  They paint horns on Bush's head both both figuratively and literally.  The only reason the word "evil" isn't used more often when attacking Cheyney is because the Left doesn't like to use the word or acknowledge the concept actually exists (no problem though when profanity serves so well).  He's the Dark Sith Lord of the Republican Party.  Or was that Karl Rove?  I can't remember. 
The venom spewing from the left greatly outweighs what comes from the right.  The right complains and blames the left all the time.  But "demonize"?  Please.  The left wins on that count easily.

You are out of your fucking mind.  What reality do you live in??????

The right started this bullshit.  You guys are the ones who took political disagreements from mere ideology to personal attacks. Ever heard of Rush Limbaugh, Ann Coulter and Sean Hannity?  What fucking bubble have you been living in where the right has not constantly accused the left of being unpatriotic and out to destroy America?  That's not demonizing?

The right has accused the left of being immoral and out to destroy the American family.  Ever read any of Bill O'Reilly's books?

I agree with Fled.  You guys are a bunch of fucking whiners.  Palin deserves to be destroyed.  She's a fucking moron.  She has no place on anyone's ticket and makes Dan Quayle look like a genius.  The right's win-at-all-costs mentality resulted in the election of Bush to two terms, who will, without a doubt, go down in history as the worst President.  I wish the left would grow a pair of balls and really go after you assholes.  Yes, talk about McCain's infidelity.  Family values?  What bullshit!  Talk about Bristol Palin's bastard baby.  Family values?  Where? 

Fuck the right.  You can alll kiss my ass.

Zookeeper wrote:

headkicker_girl wrote:

Palin deserves to be destroyed.  She's a fucking moron.  She has no place on anyone's ticket and makes Dan Quayle look like a genius.  I wish the left would grow a pair of balls and really go after you assholes.  Talk about Bristol Palin's bastard baby.  Fuck the right.  You can alll kiss my ass.

You make such an eloquent argument for the gentility of the left.  What was I thinking?

Well, it seems the liberals can learn from the conservatives, after all.