The residents of Gaza, and the Palestinians as a whole, say they would like their own state. Yet such state must be earned. And earning a state – a piece of land to call your own – takes much more than incessant whining to the international community coupled with a desire to drive out the Jews. It requires inner strength and the ability to create rather than destroy. This is what Israelis proved time and again for over 60 years, and this is what Palestinians have yet to prove.

This part made me squirt diet pepsi out my nose.

phreddy wrote:

If the rich Arab nations in the Middle East truly wanted the Palestinians to prosper and move on, they could have helped them do so decades ago.  The fact is the rich Arabs want to keep the Palestinians crowded, festering, and angry at Israel.  These wretched masses are the source of cannon fodder for the proxy wars against Israel conducted by the Saudis, Iran, and others.  The Jews are there and they are going to stay, so the fate of the Palestinians rests with the rich Arabs, who don't really give a damn about their fate.

OMG!  Phreddy is having a lucid moment!

phreddy wrote:

Does this mean you actually agree with me?

Yes.  It's no secret that the Palestinians are the "white trash" of Arabs.  None of the other Arab nations particularly cares about their plight, but they do like the fact that the Palestinians like to launch rockets at Isreal...so much so that they are supplying Hamas with the munitions.  That way the Saudis, etc., can keep their hands clean while using the Palestinians to do their dirty work.  Israel's in a no win situation.  You can't just let Hamas keep bombing your citizens without taking action, but on the other hand, photos of dead babies is a PR nightmare because it's so inflammatory that people forget that Hamas was the aggressor.  And if you're Palestinian, you can't openly reject Hamas, so you're just caught in the crossfire.

Dmtdust wrote:

But starving a population, keeping out medical supplies etc are okay, huh Phwedd, and HK?  Sending in assination teams and taking out elected officials is okay, and none of it is to be constructed as provocation?  Please kids, at least check up on what has been going on during the last six months leading up to this.

Did you forget that Israel initially bankrolled Hamas as a counter to Fatah?  Seriously?

Seriously though, everybody with half of a brain left Palestine years ago, the religious zealots and criminals left behind are really just the chaff of that society.  They just haven't figured out yet that they lost this one decades ago and now are only intentionally prolonging their own misery for a larger personal piece of that particular shit pie.

Like this shit has anything to do with Hamas or their crappy homemade rockets. This whole thing is for Israeli domestic political consumption. Give ole Ehud the opportunity to shine up his medals in advance of the elections. Gonna get hisself a little Sharon on, make old Bibi look like a refusenik.

They're going to keep this shit up and give their unilateral and inevitable withdrawal an inauguration gift for Clinton and The One. With the chit they get from the new administration for being "reasonable" here, it'll be win win win. They might cap a few Hamas bigwigs but that's just bonus. This won't fundamentally change things and they damn well know it. Live fire kabuki.

Orange, are you Jew-ish?

Which makes O+ Juden.   Cool!

orangeplus wrote:

1/4, grandmother on my mother's side. Raised catlick. Never knew of the jew blood until the old bat died, apparently it was a dirty secret or some shit.

Yeah - Similar issue with my family.  Not only did Grandmama never mention that she was Jewish; But, she all-so claimed to be Austrian.  It was quite the shock discovering that she was actually Russian.

karenw wrote:

Dmtdust wrote:

But starving a population, keeping out medical supplies etc are okay, huh Phwedd, and HK?

I'll agree they need medical supplies, but it sounds as though they have plenty of food, Dusty.

The World Food Programme has coordinated emergency food deliveries into Gaza in recent months but the Israeli army said there was plenty of food in Gaza warehouses and that the territory's Hamas rulers had halted distribution.

Maybe so, maybe not, but at this point I wouldn't take the Israeli army's word for it if that's the only source.  They're not exactly impartial observers.  They're also claiming (much as the US did in Iraq) that all of the bombings were targeted, but they used cluster bombs before going in.

Part of the problem is that they're blocking out all press access, or we would be able to corroborate this information.    I'm not saying that they're definitely lying, but really the only way to know is to let the press in.

What the Zionists are doing to Gaza isn’t all that different from what happened in Warsaw during the last German occupation of Poland.  The takeaway lesson the Zionists learned from WWII is to take your time about genocide; rushing the job has a way of freaking people out and mobilizing them to put a stop to it.  That, and have an entire deck of victim cards in play while you are doing it.  You should all know me well enough to know that I don’t give a shit about genocide in Rwanda, Sudan, The Congo, Nigeria or any of the other places where it is occurring.  There’re too many people on this planet, and it’s time for a major plague to thin the herd.  I don’t even give a shit about the Palestinians per se.  What I do care about is that America is financing the genocide against the Palestinians.  This contributes to America being one of the most hated and feared nations on the planet and causes problems for American businesses and travelers.  If Israel wishes to be an anti-Semitic nation that kills and displaces millions of Semites, they need to do it at their own expense and not get me involved via my tax dollars and my country’s support in the UN.

Last edited by fnord (2009-01-05 23:10:32)

Lots of Malnutrition in the last few months with children... so I don't believe the Israeli's.  They want rid of everyone in Gaza, and are happy to do their best to rain terror down on the little ones.

I dislike Hamas's tactics, but like Hezbollah, they are more complicated than the Israeli and the US press paints them. 

For the record, I have had both Israeli and Palestinian friends.  I just hate seeing how this is playing out.  The only winners will be Hamas in the end, I promise you.

Updates:
Body Count - http://www.presstv.com/detail.aspx?id=8 … =351020202
Israeli Counter Demos - http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middl … 66579.html

The technology for tracking the source of artillery rounds with radar and counter firing on the tube is well established.  Modern armies shoot and move very quickly because of this.  The technology depends upon artillery shells being ballistic.  Rockets are not ballistic but they could still be tracked.  Why doesn't Israel just drop 3 or 10 rounds on the rocket launch points as quickly as possible?  Sure, it's a crude solution and there will be a lot of collateral damage.  There already is anyway.  But talk about giving the people of Gaza a great incentive to keep the rocketeers out of their hoods...  Isn't that the reason Israel is there in the first place?

tojo2000 wrote:

This is the culmination of decades of the same strategy on behalf of the Israelis, which is also the same strategy I used to use with my little sister:  sit there while she hits me until I can't take it any more and then hit her with my much stronger fist, sending her crying and getting me into big trouble.  It was a lesson it took me a long time to learn, but in my defense I was 8 years old.  I just haven't seen any consistent attempt at meaningful compromise when it comes to the official Israeli policy.

Well, I imagine your little sister might have been easier to negotiate with considering that she wasn't committed to your extinction.  It's so hard to come up with lasting peace terms with someone who would rather live in misery while trying endlessly to kill you than to live in peace. 

Negotiating with people who are irrevocably committed to your destruction as an end in itself really isn't a productive strategy.  They don't want to live in peace with Israel.  They don't want mutual respect.  They want the destruction of Israel and it is more important to them than peace, prosperity or the lives of all those tragic children who keep dying when they lure the Israelis back into an offensive.

Zookeeper wrote:

tojo2000 wrote:

This is the culmination of decades of the same strategy on behalf of the Israelis, which is also the same strategy I used to use with my little sister:  sit there while she hits me until I can't take it any more and then hit her with my much stronger fist, sending her crying and getting me into big trouble.  It was a lesson it took me a long time to learn, but in my defense I was 8 years old.  I just haven't seen any consistent attempt at meaningful compromise when it comes to the official Israeli policy.

Well, I imagine your little sister might have been easier to negotiate with considering that she wasn't committed to your extinction.  It's so hard to come up with lasting peace terms with someone who would rather live in misery while trying endlessly to kill you than to live in peace. 

Negotiating with people who are irrevocably committed to your destruction as an end in itself really isn't a productive strategy.  They don't want to live in peace with Israel.  They don't want mutual respect.  They want the destruction of Israel and it is more important to them than peace, prosperity or the lives of all those tragic children who keep dying when they lure the Israelis back into an offensive.

There is no such thing as a monolithic desire for the destruction of Israel among Palestinians, just as all Israelis don't support the current strategy.  It just makes it easier to believe that.  If there is ever going to be a solution it will be either compromise or genocide.

....  ........  ... ...... ..... ... .... ....

Emmeran wrote:

tojo2000 wrote:

they used cluster bombs before going in.

So??  WTF?  Cluster Munitions work very well, very target adaptive.

Please cite source and type of munition; keep in mind we aren't all media reactive here, many of us have knowledge of the usage and effect of these weapons.

Very target adaptive. Very target adaptive. Wow. I need to say that one more time. Very Target Adaptive. I guess, if it lives, it'll then die, so you could sorta say, cluster munitions are Very Target Adaptive. As in a high speed pieces of flying metal adapting themselves to flesh. I saw a cluster bomb strike once at a CALFEX, they're really kinda cool, it's just like the ground sort of explodes in a big wave. It was very target adaptive to the jackrabbits and the target half-tracks.

And don't give me no guided EFP submunitions bullshit, Hamas doesn't have armoured vehicles, if the Israeli's are using cluster bombs, they're using plain jane frag frisbees. WTF else could they be used for in Gaza?

orangeplus wrote:

MrCreosote wrote:

The technology for tracking the source of artillery rounds with radar and counter firing on the tube is well established.  Modern armies shoot and move very quickly because of this.  The technology depends upon artillery shells being ballistic.  Rockets are not ballistic but they could still be tracked.  Why doesn't Israel just drop 3 or 10 rounds on the rocket launch points as quickly as possible?  Sure, it's a crude solution and there will be a lot of collateral damage.  There already is anyway.  But talk about giving the people of Gaza a great incentive to keep the rocketeers out of their hoods...  Isn't that the reason Israel is there in the first place?

Well gee Dr. Professor, Eureka! I can't believe they hadn't thought of ths before! Dude, you are so smart. You should send an email to Ehud Barack and the IDF like right now. They'll totally give you a medal.

Obviously the Hamas Rocketeers are aware of this fact also - which expains why the indirect fire has given way to FROG weapons.  The very inaccuracy of these rockets is their saving grace, it is difficult to triangulate a weapon with a non-balistic flight path; impossible at ranges of 10+ miles.

Well Em... going by that every oppressed people should just give up.  Look to the Irish, 900 years, and they finally got the fucking English out.  Count on it... The Palestinians will stay, and multiply.  If you have family in Israel, sponsor them to the states.  It's not to late.

tojo2000 wrote:

Maybe so, maybe not, but at this point I wouldn't take the Israeli army's word for it if that's the only source.  They're not exactly impartial observers.  They're also claiming (much as the US did in Iraq) that all of the bombings were targeted, but they used cluster bombs before going in.

Part of the problem is that they're blocking out all press access, or we would be able to corroborate this information.    I'm not saying that they're definitely lying, but really the only way to know is to let the press in.

I know. I got link-happy, then once I read the actual story and realized it was biased, I removed my post - but not before I could be quoted. Sigh.

tojo2000 wrote:

There is no such thing as a monolithic desire for the destruction of Israel among Palestinians, just as all Israelis don't support the current strategy.  It just makes it easier to believe that.

On the contrary, I suspect that the VAST majority of Palestinians in Gaza really would be happy to see Israel removed from the map.  They may not "support the current strategy" but only because it isn't succeeding.  But whether you agree with that or not they certainly seem incapable of driving out the elements in their midst that are committed to breaking any peace that anyone ever manages to broker.

The juden won't leave and the palestinians won't leave.  The current/next resistance party will shoot rockets or missiles at Isreal - Isreal will put up with it for a few weeks and then retaliate.

The bleeding hearts will whine that the jews killed more completely frustrating some of us.

The War Nerd weighs in

It still reads weird.  Thanks for your efforts though.

Lack of punctuation, and know it doesn't piss me off.  If nothing else, it shows a lack of inner discipline.

Thanks!  Your IT!  I win, AGAIN!