Maybe they had no insurance. My aunt fell and broke her hip and shoulder (bad osteoporitis) about three weeks ago. Then, a week ago, they decided to tell her about the three tumorous masses they'd MRI'd three months earlier. She died this Monday morning after being sent home from the hospital because "there was nothing they could do for her."

jesusluvspegging wrote:

But the Republicans said that anyone can get free medical care in America just by going to an emergency room.  Are you saying I've been LIED to?

You get enough medical care to keep you from dying in the ER. You don't treat cancer in the ER.

ptah13 wrote:

I know someone in the UK who died from an ulcer.

At the time, the doctors said, "we aren't sure what is wrong with her, so all we can do is make her comfortable". She'd had ulcers for years and struggled to get in to see the doctor and was only given medication. She died, bleeding from both ends, in a huge amount of pain.

Yeah, can't wait for that socialized medicine....

For those that wish to argue, first try and explain why we have way more breast cancer incidents in the US while having a lower mortality rate than either the UK or Canada.

Good luck.

http://info.cancerresearchuk.org/cancer … incidence/

OMG!  You found...a statistic! 

Here's another one:  The fastest growing cause of mortality in the US is medical error..  I guess we must have socialized medicine already, because these kinds of things only happen in the UK and Canada.

Fled wrote:

Anyone who thinks our health care "system" is good is wilfully blind.

And also healthy.  Pray you stay that way.

A graph for ptah

Last edited by jesusluvspegging (2009-02-12 13:22:46)

It's nice to see Israel doing so well on this chart. We pay for their socialized medicine after all.

ptah13 wrote:

Another misleading graph..

There is a lot more to life expectancy and child mortality than just the medical system you have.

Of course there is, but it's only misreading if you read too much into it.  The fact is that the US, which by all rights should have the best health record in the world, is getting the shit beat out of us by countries that, predominately, have socialized medicine.  Now, perhaps there's other factors giving those countries their longer life spans and lower birth mortality rates, but the fact that most of the forerunners have socialized medicine means it's at least worth an examination.

Also, there's more to public health policy than just sewing up wounds and giving MRIs.  Good socialized medicine MUST include a huge dose of public education about diet, exercise, etc., which isn't happening in the current system.  We also need to roll in tighter pollution controls, stricter examination of food and drug supplies, and more finance for medical/scientific education.

Any way you look at it, we're doing something wrong.

Last edited by jesusluvspegging (2009-02-12 16:45:31)

tojo2000 wrote:

Don't forget that we pay more than twice as much for our health care as anyone else.

Oh, you damned liberals and your facts.

jesusluvspegging wrote:

Also, there's more to public health policy than just sewing up wounds and giving MRIs.  Good socialized medicine MUST include a huge dose of public education about diet, exercise, etc., which isn't happening in the current system.  We also need to roll in tighter pollution controls, stricter examination of food and drug supplies, and more finance for medical/scientific education.

Any way you look at it, we're doing something wrong.

Totally agree with ya.

I think a bigger part of our countries problem is that, overall, we are a more unhealthy nation than all the ones before us on those charts.

I'm from Indiana. We eat fried foods, pork, and cheese and lots of people smoke.

Just tonight, my mother and I had a huge discussion about smoking bans in bars and why they work so well in California, but put bars out of business here...

The difference between the coasts and the middle states are like night and day when it comes to health awareness and physical fitness. I'd wager this has something to do with the graph, posted, more than insurance.

Hell, anyone without insurance in Indiana can get our states program that is free to almost anyone except those who can afford to pay (and even then, they pay a greatly reduced rate). This plan covers everything. I know a kid who got a free root canal with it, and even my best insurance made me pay for major dental.

To say "health coverage is denied to xxx Americans" is misleading, because most anywhere has programs for the uninsured to fill their health needs.

tojo2000 wrote:

jesusluvspegging wrote:

ptah13 wrote:

Another misleading graph..

There is a lot more to life expectancy and child mortality than just the medical system you have.

Of course there is, but it's only misreading if you read too much into it.  The fact is that the US, which by all rights should have the best health record in the world, is getting the shit beat out of us by countries that, predominately, have socialized medicine.  Now, perhaps there's other factors giving those countries their longer life spans and lower birth mortality rates, but the fact that most of the forerunners have socialized medicine means it's at least worth an examination.

Also, there's more to public health policy than just sewing up wounds and giving MRIs.  Good socialized medicine MUST include a huge dose of public education about diet, exercise, etc., which isn't happening in the current system.  We also need to roll in tighter pollution controls, stricter examination of food and drug supplies, and more finance for medical/scientific education.

Any way you look at it, we're doing something wrong.

Don't forget that we pay more than twice as much for our health care as anyone else.

Also, the health care industry in the US is designed for one thing only:  churn out top-notch specialists.  A specialist in the US will make 10 times more than a specialist in another country, even as a percentage of pay over that of a general practitioner.  So yes, if you need the latest brain surgery or cancer treatment, there is a good doctor (that you probably can't afford) in the US.  When it comes to all of that non-sexy stuff, you know, keeping everyone alive when they don't have a terminal disease, we pay massive amounts of money for a lower quality of care.

Oh I totally agree that our health industry is fucked in a major way. Nothing pisses me off more than the medical INDUSTRY. ESPECIALLY the mental health industry. And, don't get me wrong, I picked the term "industry" on purpose, because it's ALL ABOUT the money.

My point is, I'm not saying our heathcare are "good guys" by any means at all. I just don't think government (mis)management is the answer. Everything our government touches becomes MORE fucked up. This is one area where I DO believe they need a massive overhaul and more severe punishments for those doctors who fuck the patient for every last dollar.

You wouldn't believe how many unnecessary hysterectomies are done for: A) the extra cash and B) less malpractice suits. That's a serious surgery that can (possibly) cause long-term issues.

People hate their insurance companies and I, too, have some serious issues with the insurance industry but people also don't realize how often these same companies protect the patient from potential malpractice. On the other hand, some insurance companies are so greedy that they fuck the patient in "the waiting game" as bad as they'd get in Canada....

On top of that, insurance also fucks doctors, strong-arming them into networks where doctors are forced to provide some services free, and losing a big chunk on other services.... So this drives up the doctors prices, which drives up insurance rates, which all trickle down to you and me and what we pay for insurance and higher taxes, to boot.

I agree our system is broken, I just don't think 100% govt-managed care is the answer. You want to talk about a bureaucracy that is tight-wadded and heartless? C'mon? Swapping insurance bureaucracy for govt is like being rescued by Jeffery Dahlmer from Charles Manson.

Last edited by ptah13 (2009-02-12 20:41:17)

tojo2000 wrote:

ptah13 wrote:

I agree our system is broken, I just don't think 100% govt-managed care is the answer. You want to talk about a bureaucracy that is tight-wadded and heartless? C'mon? Swapping insurance bureaucracy for govt is like being rescued by Jeffery Dahlmer from Charles Manson.

It will hearten you to know that the people in power aren't proposing 100% govt-managed care.

Hmm... I guess we'll see.

Often what is proposed isn't what we bargained for.

Almost 50% of the population proposed Bush to be your President, twice. How did that work out for you?

tojo2000 wrote:

ptah13 wrote:

tojo2000 wrote:

It will hearten you to know that the people in power aren't proposing 100% govt-managed care.

Hmm... I guess we'll see.

Often what is proposed isn't what we bargained for.

Almost 50% of the population proposed Bush to be your President, twice. How did that work out for you?

Umm...  okay...

Ok, really-bad-analogy...

sorry, it's the meds...

Emmeran wrote:

Soviet Russia, Cuba and Red China have proven this out for us; socialism does not prevent perferred care for the upper class; and you cannot legislate classism out of human nature.

Way to cherry pick your socialisms.  You will note that none of them are democratic socialisms.

Last edited by jesusluvspegging (2009-02-12 22:19:35)

Hmmm... well I know a guy who had over $275,000 worth of hospital bills paid for, receiving top care, while unemployed. His "bill" was about $1,400. Not bad for nearly a month in ICU.

Yeah, I know, socialized health care paid for it, but that isn't the same monster as we'd be facing with nationalized health care. You'd be giving the most fucked-up bureaucracy in the modern world full control resulting with huge opportunities for corruption and ineptitude, two things always associated with government programs.

Again, I rely more on what I see with my own eyes. Personal experiences and the experiences of people I know and trust mean more to me than anything I read in print.

I'm not asking anyone to believe anything I say, just that you listen to what really happens, and not the propaganda.

(I realize that last comment opens me up to an assbeating using the pot and/or kettle as the weapon of choice.)

fnord wrote:

Ptah, I really hope you never have a serious illness and lack insurance.  Several years ago when I had my eyesight problems, they started during one of the few times in my life when I didn’t have employer based health coverage.  I paid over $50,000 dollars out of my own pocket not including lost wages before it was all over.  All of my surgeries and procedures (four for each eye) were done outpatient and went without complication; I shudder to think what it would have cost had I had complications or needed inpatient care.  My follow up exams to make sure I’m still ok aren’t covered by my present insurance because they are related to a “preexisting condition” and therefore my insurer thinks my eye care isn’t their problem.  I’ve meet several people who had the same problems I had who are now blind in one or both eyes because they didn’t qualify for aid and didn’t have the resources I had.  Most of the uninsured fall into the “grey zone” where they don’t qualify for help but don’t have the means to pay for treatment.  Hint, if you have any of the following, a home, a car, stocks and bonds to see you through your old age, even a good computer, you don’t qualify for assistance.

It must be a state-by-state deal, then because those aren't the same standards for qualification that we have here.