Johnny_Rotten wrote:

There is much more risk in talking to the police if you are an honest and innocent man then if you are a criminal.

Indeed!

It is interesting how many people aren't aware that finding something and keeping it constitutes theft.  But this is an example of idiocy of the highest order.

Zookeeper wrote:

I can't think of a single encounter in my life where I've been innocent and would have been better off refusing to talk to the police.  But hey, maybe I've just lead a charmed life or stayed in all the right neighborhoods.

I'd say it was the latter.  That, and bearing an approved skin color.  Those two, and probably also being relatively clean and prosperous-looking.

None of that is meant to imply you are wrong.  It depends on the community, and on the officers.  Even well-dressed innocent white people can get the total harassment package in certain parts of the U.S.

George Orr wrote:

Zookeeper wrote:

I can't think of a single encounter in my life where I've been innocent and would have been better off refusing to talk to the police.  But hey, maybe I've just lead a charmed life or stayed in all the right neighborhoods.

I'd say it was the latter.  That, and bearing an approved skin color.  Those two, and probably also being relatively clean and prosperous-looking.

OK, give an example of where a person "not of an approved skin color" or who doesn't look realatively clean and prosperous, and who is innocent, is better off refusing to talk to the police.  Be sure to make your example a typical one and not an exceptional one.  Remember: my point is that most of the time an innocent person is better off cooperating with the police than refusing to cooperate.

George Orr wrote:

None of that is meant to imply you are wrong.  It depends on the community, and on the officers.  Even well-dressed innocent white people can get the total harassment package in certain parts of the U.S.

Yes, they can.  But refusing to talk with the police is far more likely to result in a hassle than cooperating.  A cop who is likely to harass is even more likely to harass someone who refuses to cooperate. 

I can understand "don't get involved and don't initiate contact with the police" for someone in one of the groups you described.  But when I've heard the mantra "don't talk to the cops" in the past the point was to not answer the police's questions when they approach you.  Unless your answers are likely to incriminate you, in most circumstances clamming up is far more likely to cause you more problems than simply cooperating.

Actually...

I was harassed quite frequently as a youth by a Detective who would pop me every time he saw me.  He conspired/tried to have me put away at 16 on made up charges until I was 21. (he failed)  I was in constant contact with some form of police from 14 on it seems.  I could be hanging from a tree in my front yard, and I would be harassed by the police driving by.  Jaywalk?  Into jail.

I was frequently stopped and searched in the UK, through out the USA, France and Germany.  I never gave them grief, but it seemed like an entertaining thing for the police at the time.  Flying for me until I was in my late 30's was a special variety of hell.  Mind you, this was before 9/11 by several years.  I got strip searched going out of Britain, searched coming into the states, my wife was subjected to absolute grilling by the authorities as well. 

I won't go on about being searched, but just to say the German police are extremely nervous and seem to always have heckler-koch machine pistols at the train stations. 

So your speed has varied from mine.  I have had friends shot and killed by the police, whilst not resisting arrest, and others beaten to pulps for being the wrong color. 

Being innocent or not isn't the question; the question is what type of person you'll run up against, and what gives him kicks because he has false authority over you.

Dmtdust wrote:

Being innocent or not isn't the question;

Acutally, it is since my post was in reply to JR's assertion "There is much more risk in talking to the police if you are an honest and innocent man then if you are a criminal."  Note the word "innocent" in JR's assertion.

Dmtdust wrote:

the question is what type of person you'll run up against, and what gives him kicks because he has false authority over you.

So, you're saying that I would have had all the same experiences you had if I had met up with all the same people who gave you and your wife a hard time?

I just gotta ask: Why is it you think you had so many run-ins with the law?  You sound like that poor guy in the statistic "A man is mugged every 30 seconds in New York City."

Last edited by Zookeeper (2009-04-04 13:17:36)

Dmtdust wrote:

No, you probably have a milquetoast exterior and demeanor, no offense.

I fit a profile, that's all.

Any reasonable person would agree that the guy in that photo deserves to be harassed every minute of every day.

Last time I rode in the back of a police car, I was calmly talking to the calm officer and my excitable buddy was talking to the excitable officer and away we went. Fortunately, it was easy to demonstrate that we'd not been up to any mischief and we were returned to his place.

snottyloverocket wrote:

favorite police experience:

as a teenager (15) and just outside Washington DC, stopped leaving the mall by two cops because i had been 'loud' according to them.  the two friends i was with were not stop and they waited by the car about 30 feet away.

one cop notices that i have an iron cross pin on my jacket (this being the early 80s and me being the punk knucklehead that i was).  so the cop asks me if i'm some kind of a nazi.

me, again - punk knucklehead - decides to launch into a five minute diabtribe about the origin of the iron cross, what it represented, and how it was in no way associated with the nazi party.  looking back, a simple "no" would have sufficed.  my friends are laughing their asses off now.

cop looks at me and says, "okay, you have three choices:  we can beat your ass here, we can drive you to woods and beat your ass, or we can take you to the station and beat your ass there - what's it going to be?"

i look over at my friends (still laughing, btw) and say, "fuck man, i've got a party to go to so just beat my ass here".

and there was a beating - fists, boots, and night sticks - all while my friends looked on laughing.

years later i found out that one of the cop was arrested and jailed for being a pedophile and the other for aggravated murder of a suspect.  makes me wonder what would have happened if i had taken the 'go to the woods' option.

Yep.  That is the world as it really is for many people.

Dmtdust wrote:

Yep.  That is the world as it really is for many people.

Believe it or not, for the other 95% or so of us nothing like that ever happens.  Hard to believe, I know.  As for the remaining 5%, well, as harsh as it sounds to say it they often (note the word "often" - not an absolute) bring the shit down on themselves.  Reminds me of an educational video I once saw...

Last edited by Zookeeper (2009-04-04 19:24:58)

I got patted down, chewed out, and threatened with being run in for "disorderly conduct" (a bullshit catch-all clause if I've ever heard one) for dueling with shinai with a friend of mine in a public park in the middle of the day.  We'd scrap until one of us (usually me) "killed" the other guy, then we'd both back off, laughing, and start over.  We were well clear of the other park-goers and weren't in any way threatening any other people.

"One of you could have gotten hurt," sayeth the cop.  A shinai can leave a pretty good welt, but that's about it, unless you're using one that's been broken.

Last edited by jesusluvspegging (2009-04-04 20:24:31)

opsec wrote:

White, bald and jealous

I have thick, luxurious, curly hair that I shave down to the bone because I hates it, yesssssssss.

opsec wrote:

jesusluvspegging wrote:

I have thick, luxurious, curly hair that I shave down to the bone because I hates it, yesssssssss.

We're aware that Jesus shaves his nuts.

Also His skull.  Otherwise, My hair tangles up in that whole crown of thorns thing.

_I_ wanted a tiara.  Dad said "no."

Last edited by jesusluvspegging (2009-04-04 21:21:40)

jesusluvspegging wrote:

opsec wrote:

We're aware that Jesus shaves his nuts.

Also His skull.  Otherwise, My hair tangles up in that whole crown of thorns thing.

_I_ wanted a tiara.  Dad said "no."

Wow, so all those Renaissance Masters are in hell?  Satan always seems to wind up with the best talent.

jesusluvspegging wrote:

Good art is inherently anti-establishment and anti-authority.  It can't be helped.

No offense, but this kind of logic is why I'm agnostic.  Which is not to say I don't believe you exist.  In fact I believe it's quite possible, if somewhat unlikely that you do indeed exist.  The fact that you post on this forum is evidence that you might exist, but the fact that you shave both your balls and your head makes me hope that you don't.  Again, no offense... just in case.

snottyloverocket wrote:

unwarranted police harrassment (not the 5% who 'deserve it') is a fact of life.  just like winning the lottery.  if probably won't happen but it very well might.

Well, if you really think the odds of an honest person being harassed are about the same as the odds of winning the lottery, I can live with those odds.

Interesting parallel: One of the reasons I've never won the lottery is I've never bought a ticket.  I'm willing to bet that the majority of people who say they keep getting harassed are "buying their tickets".

snottyloverocket wrote:

Zookeeper wrote:

well, if you really think the odds of an honest person being harassed are about the same as the odds of winning the lottery, I can live with those odds.

i agree - chances are it won't happen.

Zookeeper wrote:

Interesting parallel: One of the reasons I've never won the lottery is I've never bought a ticket.  I'm willing to bet that the majority of people who say they keep getting harassed are "buying their tickets".

nah, doesn't work that way and you know this.  noone ever "wasn't" harrassed by the police because they were honest.

and people who cite continual harrassement are - almost by virtue of their continual harassement - the cause of their own misery.

once or twice does not constitute 'keep getting harassed'.

just so we're clear - i'm not defending general public ass-hattery.  my example was from when i was 15 years old and i've had 22 years to reflect on it.  in reference to the original topic: would i talk to the police?  no.  i would not talk to the police nor do encourage my children to talk to the police.  i encourage them to recognize them for what they are: the enforcement arm of a skewed legal system that most definately is not here to protect and serve.

doesn't mean they're bad.  doesn't mean they're wrong.  i just would like my children to not be so sugar-coated as to think that by writ of a policeman' badge that the cop is somehow 'good people'.  he's not.

they're people and they will fuck you at every turn if it makes their lives easier.

Yes, cops are not necessarily "good".  Would a "good" person have beaten snotty so badly that his pinkies are completely unable to push the SHIFT key?  I think not.

The fact that the police will use intimidation and every power in their office to examine your life with a microscope is more an affirmation NOT to talk to them than an excuse to just play Sambo and answer their questions in order to "minimize the hassle".

http://www.philly.com/dailynews/local/41551507.html

Oh, yes.  Well behaved at the best of times.

Johnny_Rotten wrote:

I am sure if there  ever was a problem they could file a complaint

You're a card, JR.